A challenge for the progressive left

Robo

Verified User
There has been some debate here lately about the “General Welfare Clause” of our Constitution, (Article One, Section Eight).

Here’s Thomas Jefferson’s interpretation.

“To lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States, that is to say, to lay taxes of providing for the general welfare. For the laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase, not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please, which might be for the good of the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please.” (Thomas Jefferson to George Washington)

Here’s Alexander Hamilton’s interpretation,

Alexander Hamilton, only after the Constitution had been ratified,[18] argued for a broad interpretation which viewed spending as an enumerated power Congress could exercise independently to benefit the general welfare, such as to assist national needs in agriculture or education, provided that the spending is general in nature and does not favor any specific section of the country over any other

Here’s the challenge to the progressive left and anybody else who disagrees with Jefferson’s interpretation.

Why is Jefferson’s interpretation not correct? Why, as Jefferson noted, doesn’t any other interpretation, (including Hamilton’s) render the Constitution to a “single clause” and make the rest of the Constitution null and void?

By what authority does the federal government/Congress & Presidents author and enforce social programs, subsidies and bail outs that are NOT enumerated in the Constitution as a power of the federal government?

Of what value is the 10th amendment to the Constitution or any other amendment or article in the Constitution if the general welfare clause is the trumping clause that determines any and all actions the federal government wishes to take can be claimed to be “in the general welfare” and thereby constitutional?
 
Since it appears on the surface that you are attempting to build a strawman, which would explain why no one has responded to your challenge. Please define and clarify what you mean by "progressive left"?
 
Since it appears on the surface that you are attempting to build a strawman, which would explain why no one has responded to your challenge. Please define and clarify what you mean by "progressive left"?

I've already proven to him in another thread that Jefferson didn't say those words, so like all the other dimwitted right wingers on this forum he just starts another thread.


 
Yeah, I'd like some verification of the source for Jefferson or Hamilton. I don't recall ever coming across such statements from Jefferson, though Madison made a similiar argument in a veto.
 
Yeah, I'd like some verification of the source for Jefferson or Hamilton. I don't recall ever coming across such statements from Jefferson, though Madison made a similiar argument in a veto.

There are at least eight threads with his failed argument, including the past four where I've proven to him Jefferson did not say those words.

Try here:



http://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...e-Democrat-s-Death-Nail&p=1213438#post1213438

Both points are taken down.

Followed by this, of course, to prove my point above:

Said as the idiot fastens the blinders on tightly in order to not see my post proving him wrong.
 
There has been some debate here lately about the “General Welfare Clause” of our Constitution, (Article One, Section Eight).

Here’s Thomas Jefferson’s interpretation.

“To lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States, that is to say, to lay taxes of providing for the general welfare. For the laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase, not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please, which might be for the good of the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please.” (Thomas Jefferson to George Washington)

Here’s Alexander Hamilton’s interpretation,

Alexander Hamilton, only after the Constitution had been ratified,[18] argued for a broad interpretation which viewed spending as an enumerated power Congress could exercise independently to benefit the general welfare, such as to assist national needs in agriculture or education, provided that the spending is general in nature and does not favor any specific section of the country over any other

Here’s the challenge to the progressive left and anybody else who disagrees with Jefferson’s interpretation.

Why is Jefferson’s interpretation not correct? Why, as Jefferson noted, doesn’t any other interpretation, (including Hamilton’s) render the Constitution to a “single clause” and make the rest of the Constitution null and void?

By what authority does the federal government/Congress & Presidents author and enforce social programs, subsidies and bail outs that are NOT enumerated in the Constitution as a power of the federal government?

Of what value is the 10th amendment to the Constitution or any other amendment or article in the Constitution if the general welfare clause is the trumping clause that determines any and all actions the federal government wishes to take can be claimed to be “in the general welfare” and thereby constitutional?

Isn't "Dictatorship and Tyranny" when one person rules all?

Maybe you will learn more about politics when you listen to the majority of people.......not just the select few you favor...
 
Just to give an opinion....do with it as you will...

There are some Conservatives who believe that "libruls" think that the general welfare clause refers to welfare...as in Public Assistance. Which is not Necessarily true....it can be..but not in and of itself....what the General Welfare encompasses is measures that promote the General Welfare of the Nation. If helping the poor, elderly and disabled makes us a better nation overall, we do it. If going to single payer health care makes us fiscally stronger than the clusterfuck we have now? We do it. If our infrastructure that our people and businesses rely on for transportation and commerce is failing...we fix it...

It's an all encompassing term meaning "for the health of the Country"
 
I've already proven to him in another thread that Jefferson didn't say those words, so like all the other dimwitted right wingers on this forum he just starts another thread.



You can’t even ”prove” your sanity Howey let alone any intellectual ability to present a rational debate. Just like all brain-dead leftist you think a debate is personally insulting the opponent and babbling irrelevant, irrational horseshit. According to countless web sites the REAL PROOF of what Jefferson said and the challenge of the OP is not only relevant but historically recorded. Here’s just a few for your brain-dead review.

Historical Debate and Pre-1936 Rulings [edit] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause
In one letter, Thomas Jefferson asserted that “[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.”[13][14]

Alexander Hamilton, only after the Constitution had been ratified,[18] argued for a broad interpretation which viewed spending as an enumerated power Congress could exercise independently to benefit the general welfare, such as to assist national needs in agriculture or education, provided that the spending is general in nature and does not favor any specific section of the country over any other.[19]

Thomas-Jefferson-clarifies-to-provide-for-thegeneral-welfare
"To lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States, that is to say, "to lay taxes for the purpose of providing for the general welfare." For the laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on National Bank, 1791. ME 3:147 http://www.dailypaul.com/103339/thomas-jefferson-clarifies-to-provide-for-thegeneral-welfare


FROM: THOMAS JEFFERSON
TO: ALBERT GALLATIN.
“You will have learned that an act for internal improvement, after passing both houses,
was negatived by the President. The act was founded, avowedly, on the principle that
the phrase in the constitution, which authorizes Congress 'to lay taxes, to pay the
debts and provide for the general welfare,' was an extension of the powers
specifically enumerated to whatever would promote the general welfare; and this, you
know, was the federal doctrine. Whereas, our tenet ever was, and, indeed, it is almost
the only land-mark which now divides the federalists* from the republicans, that
Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but were
restrained to those specifically enumerated; and that, as it was never meant they
should provide for that welfare but by the exercise of the enumerated powers, so it
could not have been meant they should raise money for purposes which the
enumeration did not place under their action: consequently, that the specification of
powers is a limitation of the purposes for which they may raise money.” http://illinoisconservative.com/Jefferson/TJ-06-16-1817.html


What is the real meaning of the General welfare clause
"They are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose. To consider the latter phrase not as describing the purpose of the first, but as giving a distinct and independent power to do any act they please which might be for the good of the Union, would render all the preceding and subsequent enumerations of power completely useless. It would reduce the whole instrument to a single phrase, that of instituting a Congress with power to do whatever would be for the good of the United States; and, as they would be the sole judges of the good or evil, it would be also a power to do whatever evil they please... Certainly no such universal power was meant to be given them. It was intended to lace them up straitly within the enumerated powers and those without which, as means, these powers could not be carried into effect." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on National Bank, 1791. ME 3:148 http://www.sodahead.com/united-stat...baf&q=jefferson+on+the+general+welfare+clause
 
Isn't "Dictatorship and Tyranny" when one person rules all?

Maybe you will learn more about politics when you listen to the majority of people.......not just the select few you favor...

Maybe if you paid attention to history the writings of our founders and the actual constructs of our Constitution you’d actually have some ability to debate politics instead of babbling left-wing horseshit, huh?
 
Yeah, I'd like some verification of the source for Jefferson or Hamilton. I don't recall ever coming across such statements from Jefferson, though Madison made a similiar argument in a veto.

Apparently, you are not a student of American history nor Jefferson in particular. See my last post to Howey where you can link to several of Jefferson’s quotes on the “general welfare.” BTW, the links are only a fraction of what is available regarding this historical debate.
 
Since it appears on the surface that you are attempting to build a strawman, which would explain why no one has responded to your challenge. Please define and clarify what you mean by "progressive left"?

Progressivism is a general political philosophy advocating or favoring gradual social, political, and economic reform.[1] Modern Progressivism emerged as part of a more general response to the vast social changes brought by industrialization.
It is left of center in the political spectrum and is to be contrasted with conservatism on the right and the revolutionary left, the former generally resisting changes it advocates and the latter rejecting its gradualism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

As you must have surely noted by now there have been a few feeble leftist attempts to respond to this thread. Of course like you, they only attempt to ignore the actual subject matter and challenge of the thread by left-handed insulting the challenger, claiming they have made absurd proof in other threads that Jefferson never said what I posted he said or just made irrational one-liners totally lacking of any intellectual ability. But worry not your little minded leftist head about all of that because I never expected any actual rational debate on the issue and challenge I’ve presented. What I did expect was exactly what y’all lefties have presented as apparent in all of the above. Either that or a total ignoring of the thread because of course leftist are brainwashed, brain-dead mindless wonks incapable of any real rational debate politically or otherwise.

Could you explain where the “strawman” you accuse me of building can be located in my challenge? I reckon not, huh?
 
Do your homework junior
You start every thread insulting liberals, yet you don't even have a paycheck yet.

I never insult “liberals” Dude, I’m a REAL LIBERAL in the traditions of our founders that gave us that very, very “liberal” Constitution and it’s very, very liberal Bill Of Rights. I only insult brain-dead “leftist & “rightist.” The only thing liberal about the left is their very, very liberal desire to establish a Communist America.

BTW Dude, I was a REAL liberal before your brain ran down your daddy’s leg. I was born in 1936 under the communist regime of FDR the father of American Socialism.
 
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