A Return to Scientific Sanity

Mott the Hoople

Mott the Hoople

Sweet Jane
President Obama has over turned the Bush prohibition of funding stem cell research.

This is a clear repudiation of one of the most troubling aspect of the Bush administration. Its politicization of our nations science policy to appease religeous zealots.

In an era where sound science policy is just absolutely essential to our nations interest, national security and economic viability and competativeness it is indeed good news for this nation to see us return to sound and sane science policy.

One of the saddest and most pathetic legacy of the Bush years is how they marginalized the scientist and technologist of this nation. If now we can only emphasize science to youngsters so that they will think that being the next Feinman would be as cool as being the next Eminem or Tiger Woods. There's a lot of systemic damage that needs to be done from the Bush years to restore our reputation in science leadership.
 
Too bad scientific conclusions are mostly dictated by the military industrial complex. Take the AGW argument for instance, total lies.
 
Mottleydude said:
President Obama has over turned the Bush prohibition of funding stem cell research.

This is a clear repudiation of one of the most troubling aspect of the Bush administration. Its politicization of our nations science policy to appease religeous zealots.

In an era where sound science policy is just absolutely essential to our nations interest, national security and economic viability and competativeness it is indeed good news for this nation to see us return to sound and sane science policy.

One of the saddest and most pathetic legacy of the Bush years is how they marginalized the scientist and technologist of this nation. If now we can only emphasize science to youngsters so that they will think that being the next Feinman would be as cool as being the next Eminem or Tiger Woods. There's a lot of systemic damage that needs to be done from the Bush years to restore our reputation in science leadership.
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I was glad to see that. Keep politics out of science and we may get somewhere.
 
I've often wondered about this silliness. It is a fact that Bush was the first President to fund any form of Stem Cell research from the public trough. It isn't like Bush took any money from previous research, nor did he work to make laws against specific forms of research.

1. Bush never "banned" stem cell research.
2. Bush was the first president to ever fund such research.

Nobody suggests that Clinton was "insane" because he never funded the research at all. The only suggestion of this sort is that Bush didn't go as far as they wanted in the funding therefore he is "insane".
 
Solitary said:
I was glad to see that. Keep politics out of science and we may get somewhere.
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The money trail always taints the conclusions. ALways. Follow the money. The fascists are controlling science now, and to say decisions cannot vary from what corrupt scientists say is 100% bad.
 
Damocles said:
I've often wondered about this silliness. It is a fact that Bush was the first President to fund any form of Stem Cell research from the public trough. It isn't like Bush took any money from previous research, nor did he work to make laws against specific forms of research.

1. Bush never "banned" stem cell research.
2. Bush was the first president to ever fund such research.

Nobody suggests that Clinton was "insane" because he never funded the research at all. The only suggestion of this sort is that Bush didn't go as far as they wanted in the funding therefore he is "insane".
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Well, embryonic stem cells were first discovered in 1998 or 99 I think. And my recollection is that Clinton issued regulations concerning providing for federal funding of stem cell research after the matter was investigated by an bioethics panel and Bush rescinded that Order.

So, Bush basically undid what Clinton had done concerning funding of embryonic stem cell research in the short time between discovery and the end of his term. Bush was the first president to fund it because he prevented the Clinton regulations from going into effect, as was his prerogative, but lets not shower him with praise for it.
 
Damocles said:
I've often wondered about this silliness. It is a fact that Bush was the first President to fund any form of Stem Cell research from the public trough. It isn't like Bush took any money from previous research, nor did he work to make laws against specific forms of research.

1. Bush never "banned" stem cell research.
2. Bush was the first president to ever fund such research.

Nobody suggests that Clinton was "insane" because he never funded the research at all. The only suggestion of this sort is that Bush didn't go as far as they wanted in the funding therefore he is "insane".
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That wasn't the issue Damo. The issue was that he politicized science of an extremely important nature that should not have been politicized in the first place. Stem Cell research is just one example of where Bush neophyte officials and appointees politicized science policy for which they lacked the qualifications for making sound public policy decisions and for which they felt they had a mandate (very debatable) to advance a religious agenda over sound science policy.
 
Mottleydude said:
That wasn't the issue Damo. The issue was that he politicized science of an extremely important nature that should not have been politicized in the first place. Stem Cell research is just one example of where Bush neophyte officials and appointees politicized science policy for which they lacked the qualifications for making sound public policy decisions and for which they felt they had a mandate (very debatable) to advance a religious agenda over sound science policy.
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Facts are facts. What you do with those facts is a moral concern.
 
Mottleydude said:
That wasn't the issue Damo. The issue was that he politicized science of an extremely important nature that should not have been politicized in the first place. Stem Cell research is just one example of where Bush neophyte officials and appointees politicized science policy for which they lacked the qualifications for making sound public policy decisions and for which they felt they had a mandate (very debatable) to advance a religious agenda over sound science policy.
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The issue is the lie you're trying to peddle here as fact...

BUSH NEVER banned stem cell research and BUSH WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENT to use federal money FOR stem cell research...
THOSE ARE THE FACTS....

Bush did not support creating embryonic stem cells for the sole purpose of using those cells for research....
If you can't tell the truth....STFU for a change...
 
Dungheap said:
Well, embryonic stem cells were first discovered in 1998 or 99 I think. And my recollection is that Clinton issued regulations concerning providing for federal funding of stem cell research after the matter was investigated by an bioethics panel and Bush rescinded that Order.

So, Bush basically undid what Clinton had done concerning funding of embryonic stem cell research in the short time between discovery and the end of his term. Bush was the first president to fund it because he prevented the Clinton regulations from going into effect, as was his prerogative, but lets not shower him with praise for it.
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Clinton did nothing to federally fund stem cell research while he was president as far I know....if you know different, link me up
 
bravo said:
Clinton did nothing to federally fund stem cell research while he was president as far I know....if you know different, link me up
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Or did it? In January of 1999, Harriet Rabb, the top lawyer at the Department of Health and Human Services, released a legal opinion that would set the course for Clinton Administration policy. Federal funds, obviously, could not be used to derive stem cell lines (because derivation involves embryo destruction). However, she concluded that because human embryonic stem cells "are not a human embryo within the statutory definition," the Dickey-Wicker Amendment does not apply to them. The NIH was therefore free to give federal funding to experiments involving the cells themselves (what Republican Senator Sam Brownback, of Kansas, called a bit of "legal sophistry.")

The NIH, with input from the National Bioethics Advisory Commission and others, went on to develop guidelines outlining the types of human embryonic stem cell research that would be eligible for federal funding. These Clinton Administration guidelines, published in August of 2000, forbid the use of federal funds to destroy human embryos to derive stem cells (because of the Dickey-Wicker Amendment), but permitted research with stem cells that other, privately funded scientists had already derived from spare embryos slated for destruction at fertility clinics.

President Clinton strongly endorsed the new guidelines, noting that human embryonic stem cell research promised "potentially staggering benefits." And with the guidelines in place, the NIH began accepting grant proposals from scientists. Thus, it was the Clinton Administration that first opened the door to federal funding.
Bush's restrictions

When President Bush took office in January of 2001, by contrast, he began to shut that door. First, his HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson ordered a review of Rabb's legal decision. Then, the Bush Administration told the NIH to cancel its plans to review grant applications—pending completion of the HHS review. If the Bush Administration had done nothing, the NIH would have proceeded to review the applications and to finance those that were successful. Instead, that process was halted, a decision that saddened, angered, and frustrated supporters of human embryonic stem cell research.

On August 9, 2001, Bush went further. He announced that federal funding would now be restricted to a limited number of stem cell lines already created by that date—a decision that denied support to many promising avenues of biomedical research in an effort not to "sanction or encourage further destruction of human embryos." Three months later, his administration ordered an official withdrawal of funding guidelines that Clinton had authorized. And with that withdrawal, Bush became the first president to reduce—below what his predecessor had authorized—the amount of human embryonic stem cell research eligible for federal funding. (Reports issued by Bush's own President's Council on Bioethics, which he established by executive order before appointing all of its members, confirm these events in detail.)

Loosening Bush's restrictions on stem cell research, then, would not be venturing into uncharted territory. It would simply be returning toward where we were before, under Clinton.
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/dispatches/050413.html
 
Mottleydude said:
That wasn't the issue Damo. The issue was that he politicized science of an extremely important nature that should not have been politicized in the first place. Stem Cell research is just one example of where Bush neophyte officials and appointees politicized science policy for which they lacked the qualifications for making sound public policy decisions and for which they felt they had a mandate (very debatable) to advance a religious agenda over sound science policy.
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No, what Obama has done is to politisize the issue. Here is why:


President Obama today fulfilled his campaign promise to lift federal-funding restrictions on research involving the destruction of human embryos. He couldn't have done so at a more inappropriate time, for just last week scientists made headlines again announcing yet another breakthrough in what is known as "induced pluripotent stem-cell" technology. Following up on the initial breakthrough in November 2007 that allowed scientists to produce the biological equivalent of embryonic stem cells without creating, using, or destroying any human embryos, scientists have continued to refine their methods. Last week's announcement was the latest in a long string of developments. If Obama truly wants to find honorable compromises that the entire nation can accept in good conscience and even endorse, he should be promoting these alternative sources.

During the ceremony this morning, Obama announced that by signing this executive order "we will lift the ban on federal funding for promising embryonic stem cell research." Of course there never was a ban on federal funding for embryonic stem-cell research. President Bush was, in fact, the first president in history to fund embryonic stem cell research. The compromise Bush reached, however, put restrictions in place that prevented the further destruction of human embryos. It is these restrictions protecting human life that Obama has lifted.

Claiming that Bush's compromise was "a false choice between sound science and moral values," Obama announced that "the two are not inconsistent." "As a person of faith," he continued, he believes that "we are called to care for each othre and ease human suffering". Concretely this means that "we have been given the capacity and will to pursue this research-and the humanity and conscience to do so responsibly".

How the destruction of tiny human lives fits into this humanity and conscience is not so clear.

Obama continued, noting that his stem-cell decision was just the starting point for a larger reevaluation of the role scientists will play in his administration: "It is about letting scientists like those here today do their jobs, free from manipulation or coercion, and listening to what they tell us, even when it's inconvenient--especially when it's inconvenient."

But critics of human embryo-destructive research have never been hostile to science. The dispute is not about whether stem-cell science should proceed; it is about how it will proceed. Will it go forward in a way that respects all human life? Or will it regard the taking of human life in its early stages as justified by the desire to advance biomedical knowledge and seek therapies? Listening to scientists who tell us what they want to do doesn't mean we should give them a blank check; we need to determine if what they're proposing, especially when it's inconvenient for unborn human life, is what they should be doing.

And this isn't just some obscure pro-life worry. In 2007, when the great breakthrough of induced pluripotent stem cell technology was announced, both of the scientists behind the new technique explained the moral concerns that drove their research. Dr. Shinya Yamanaka told the New York Times: "When I saw the embryo, I suddenly realized there was such a small difference between it and my daughters. I thought, we can't keep destroying embryos for our research. There must be another way." At the same time, Dr. James Thomson, the original discoverer of embryonic stem cells, told the Times: "If human embryonic stem cell research does not make you at least a little bit uncomfortable, you have not thought about it enough. I thought long and hard about whether I would do it." He went on to add that because of this latest technique, "a decade from now, this will be just a funny historical footnote."

Read the rest here
 
Dungheap said:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/dispatches/050413.html
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Pertinent extracts...

In one sense, Bush's administration is a turning point. He has presided over the first flow of federal funds to a promising area of research that relies on destroying human embryos. And yet Bush's repeated claims to be "the first president ever to allow funding" for human embryonic stem cell research (made, for instance, during the second nationally televised presidential debate in fall 2004) are not accurate. Here, he lays claim to a stem cell legacy that isn't his. Truth is, Bush's immediate predecessor, Bill Clinton, was a far greater supporter of human embryonic stem cell research.

Clinton supported EMBRYONIC research and Bush didn't
Yeah...we all know that and its irrelevant to the topic

======================
President Clinton rejected part of these recommendations and directed the NIH not to allocate funds to experiments that would create new embryos specifically for research. But for the Gingrich-era Congress that took up the matter in 1995, funding any work with human embryos was going too far, and the recommendations created an uproar. Within a year, Congress had banned the use of federal funds for any experiment in which a human embryo is either created or destroyed.
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So whats your point....

Bush was the first to use federal funds for stem cell research...

The adjectives used and spin by PBS is to be expected, but I find their version factually inaccurate....
 
I'm sure Clinton would have supported stem cell research with federal money early in his admin. if it wasn't for the hangup and ethical debate with the embryonic part...
 
bravo said:
Pertinent extracts...

In one sense, Bush's administration is a turning point. He has presided over the first flow of federal funds to a promising area of research that relies on destroying human embryos. And yet Bush's repeated claims to be "the first president ever to allow funding" for human embryonic stem cell research (made, for instance, during the second nationally televised presidential debate in fall 2004) are not accurate. Here, he lays claim to a stem cell legacy that isn't his. Truth is, Bush's immediate predecessor, Bill Clinton, was a far greater supporter of human embryonic stem cell research.

Clinton supported EMBRYONIC research and Bush didn't
Yeah...we all know that and its irrelevant to the topic

======================
President Clinton rejected part of these recommendations and directed the NIH not to allocate funds to experiments that would create new embryos specifically for research. But for the Gingrich-era Congress that took up the matter in 1995, funding any work with human embryos was going too far, and the recommendations created an uproar. Within a year, Congress had banned the use of federal funds for any experiment in which a human embryo is either created or destroyed.
=======================

So whats your point....

Bush was the first to use federal funds for stem cell research...

The adjectives used and spin by PBS is to be expected, but I find their version factually inaccurate....
Click to expand...


Do you really want me to bold the portions relevant to our discussion?

1) Clinton provided for funding for embryonic stem cell research. The regulations Clinton implemented to that end were put off for a review when Bush took office, then revoked and the new Bush policy was put into place. SO yes, Bush was the first to allow federal funding of stem sell research but only because he rescinded the Clinton policy.

2) I'm not sure what your second point is, but the bottom line is that Clinton provided for funding of research on embryonic stem cells, including stem cells derived from embryos that would otherwise have been discarded by fertility clinics. Bush said no to that and provided only for funding of stem cells already in existence.
 
Personally, I'm against any federal or state funding for this type of research, especially in these troubling economic times. I am not opposed to the research itself, just government funding for it. I do not come to this viewpoint easily, the potential benefits to medicine are fascinating to say the least. But at the same time, should the research pan out and treatments and cures for various ailments are indeed discovered, the monetary windfalls for the drug and medical corporations are limitless. Profits for everyone. All from the taxpayers. Anyone want to bet they won't pay back the government? I also believe that private and corporate funding would lend itself to more freedom in research, less government restrictions and interference.

As I stated, I do not come to this viewpoint easily. I have lost more than one family member to more than one illness that some say could possibly be cured by potential treatments as a result of ESR.
 
bravo said:
The issue is the lie you're trying to peddle here as fact...

BUSH NEVER banned stem cell research and BUSH WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENT to use federal money FOR stem cell research...
THOSE ARE THE FACTS....

Bush did not support creating embryonic stem cells for the sole purpose of using those cells for research....
If you can't tell the truth....STFU for a change...
Click to expand...

Son when it comes to science you are dumber than a bagfull of hammers. Bush used funding for existing lines which had little if any scientific value as these lines proved unfruitful and new lines were not available to be developed due the restrictions placed on developing new lines by the Bush administration.

You shouldn't pop off at the mouth about something for which you are not only uninformed but are profoundly ignorant of. Due to Bush's politicization of stem cell research a very important new technology, which was originally founded by US Scientist had to be developed over seas due to the Bush administrations knee capping our scientist.
 
2) I'm not sure what your second point is, but the bottom line is that Clinton provided for funding of research on embryonic stem cells, including stem cells derived from embryos that would otherwise have been discarded by fertility clinics. Bush said no to that and provided only for funding of stem cells already in existence.
--------------

Maybe it would be more accurate to say "Clinton WOULD HAVE provided for funding of research on embryonic stem cells etc....

I can find no reference to money allocated by the federal government that was spent on SCR before Bush....but the search continues
 
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