an interesting question posed by the article

[Cancel 2016.2]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5017532&page=1

for those that are actually open minded and wish to discuss, please feel free.

"Recent success in Iraq "would seem to hurt Obama, but it seems as though many Americans have a fixed opinion about this and are impervious to changing facts,"

I wonder how accurate this is. Obviously many on here seem to fall into that description.... to one side or the other.

"In the last year, the Iraq War has fallen out of the headlines, and it is unclear how that lack of media attention could influence public opinion on the issue. Comparing the first 10 weeks of 2007 and 2008, the amount of time devoted to Iraq on network news programs fell from 23 percent to 3 percent, according to a study by the Project for Excellence in Journalism. "

Given the lack of attention this year vs. last, it would seem that it would indeed be hard for the perception to change even if things do indeed get better.

 

[Dilloduck]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5017532&page=1

for those that are actually open minded and wish to discuss, please feel free.

"Recent success in Iraq "would seem to hurt Obama, but it seems as though many Americans have a fixed opinion about this and are impervious to changing facts,"

I wonder how accurate this is. Obviously many on here seem to fall into that description.... to one side or the other.

"In the last year, the Iraq War has fallen out of the headlines, and it is unclear how that lack of media attention could influence public opinion on the issue. Comparing the first 10 weeks of 2007 and 2008, the amount of time devoted to Iraq on network news programs fell from 23 percent to 3 percent, according to a study by the Project for Excellence in Journalism. "

Given the lack of attention this year vs. last, it would seem that it would indeed be hard for the perception to change even if things do indeed get better.

It's pretty hard to deny that the media spotlights what it wants the people to see and then spouts opinions as to how what it should be interpreted.

 

[Socrtease]

It is great that less people are dying. But the Iraqi government is now talking with Iran and over 70% of Iraqi's want us gone. But with the establishment of bases in Iraq there is NO SIGN that we are leaving anytime soon. You know the right always says, if you give a time table for leaving then they will wait you out till you leave. Well the converse is also true, if they know that the bulk of you will leave when violence is down then they will hold off till the bulk leave. In any case, I still see very little evidence that the MAJORITY of Iraqi's want to contribute to their own freedom. We have force fed them democracy on the end of a bayonet, they have not earned it. This is not Germany, they are not going to set up bars that cater to americans, there is going to be very few places for soldiers to go, and I believe in the end, IF we stay too long they will begin killing us again.

 

[uscitizen]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5017532&page=1

for those that are actually open minded and wish to discuss, please feel free.

"Recent success in Iraq "would seem to hurt Obama, but it seems as though many Americans have a fixed opinion about this and are impervious to changing facts,"

I wonder how accurate this is. Obviously many on here seem to fall into that description.... to one side or the other.

"In the last year, the Iraq War has fallen out of the headlines, and it is unclear how that lack of media attention could influence public opinion on the issue. Comparing the first 10 weeks of 2007 and 2008, the amount of time devoted to Iraq on network news programs fell from 23 percent to 3 percent, according to a study by the Project for Excellence in Journalism. "

Given the lack of attention this year vs. last, it would seem that it would indeed be hard for the perception to change even if things do indeed get better.

yeah I have posted a few time on the drop in media coverage of the war.

 

[Bonestorm]

The bottom line is that most Americans want us to get out of Iraq regardless of whether they feel that things are going well or not. If things are going poorly, why don't we get out? If things are going so well, why do we need to stay?

One candidate wants to stay in Iraq into perpetuity while the other wants to start packing up and coming home.

 

[uscitizen]

I go with the pack up and come home part. Well except for working with the UN to try and stabilize the region.

 

[Chapdog]

This years election will be about the economy and energy. 2006 was iraq.

 

[uscitizen]

sadly enough you are right Chappy, this is what i have been saying for at least a year.

 

[Jarod]

Thank God less people are dying in Iraq, but its about more than that. Its about us having what are perceved to be Western aggressors occupieing a nation half way around the world, that never posed a threat against us.

Iraq is a quagmire that will keep erupting, and the life of ONE more American Hero should not be wasted for this misguided effort.

The interests of America are being harmed by us being in Iraq, regardless if Americans are dying or not.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

It is great that less people are dying. But the Iraqi government is now talking with Iran and over 70% of Iraqi's want us gone. But with the establishment of bases in Iraq there is NO SIGN that we are leaving anytime soon. You know the right always says, if you give a time table for leaving then they will wait you out till you leave. Well the converse is also true, if they know that the bulk of you will leave when violence is down then they will hold off till the bulk leave. In any case, I still see very little evidence that the MAJORITY of Iraqi's want to contribute to their own freedom. We have force fed them democracy on the end of a bayonet, they have not earned it. This is not Germany, they are not going to set up bars that cater to americans, there is going to be very few places for soldiers to go, and I believe in the end, IF we stay too long they will begin killing us again.

Certainly valid observations. Though with the drop off in coverage reported in the article is that perception reality? (talking about the efforts of Iraqis to contribute) As for the catering to us as occured in Germany, I agree completely that will not occur. I would like to think they are working toward strengthening their country so as to get us out. Because I do believe they are as sick of us being there as the bulk of Americans are of having our troops their.

As for bases, I think it is a mistake to have anything more than a training base there.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

The bottom line is that most Americans want us to get out of Iraq regardless of whether they feel that things are going well or not. If things are going poorly, why don't we get out? If things are going so well, why do we need to stay?

One candidate wants to stay in Iraq into perpetuity while the other wants to start packing up and coming home.

I agree that is what the majority want right now. Which is exactly why we don't have the military run by popular opinion. How many of us actually have a clue what is going on over there? How much of our opinions are based on emotion from what HAS happened vs. what is actually happening?

It is our lack of knowledge on what is going on over there that drives this perception, as we revert to what we USED to know given the lack of new data. As the article mentioned... many have their minds made up and will not change them regardless of any potential change in data, so perhaps it is a moot point.

 

[Bonestorm]

I agree that is what the majority want right now. Which is exactly why we don't have the military run by popular opinion. How many of us actually have a clue what is going on over there? How much of our opinions are based on emotion from what HAS happened vs. what is actually happening?

It is our lack of knowledge on what is going on over there that drives this perception, as we revert to what we USED to know given the lack of new data. As the article mentioned... many have their minds made up and will not change them regardless of any potential change in data, so perhaps it is a moot point.

You seem to miss my point: It doesn't matter what is going on over there. If things are going absolutely perfectly people will still look at the situation and say, "well, let's get out of there then."

Since the spring of 2004 we kept hearing that we had to stay to make the security situation better. Well, now it's better so we can leave, right?

 

[Jarod]

The following type of NeoCon talk has gotten people sick of the promise that the troops were comming home soon...

-DIXIE, August 10 2005, on Iraq: " how utterly desperate the anti-war crowd is. Still trying to lie and mislead people with propaganda like this, and still chanting to "bring them home" when it's clear, they are coming home soon, the job is almost complete! Our forces will come back home when the job is finished, and not because you pinheads 'spirited' them back with your war protests."

DIXIE 8-21-06

- Our military objectives have been met, the completion of training is currently taking place, and when we are finished... probably in the next 12-16 months, we will beging to draw down our forces and "come home" as I stated. You pinheads are so myopic, you can't understand a thing.


DIXIE 8-21-06

Well of course, stupid... why do you think the Pentagon announced the building of the bases? Just to get a "rise" out of you? No one with any common sense, that I know of, has indicated we didn't plan to have a military presence in Iraq, it's one of the primary reasons we took Saddam out! This doesn't mean we will forever have combat forces committed to Iraq, that will end as soon as their work is complete, in about 12-16 months. This is the "as soon as possible" part you heard from "neocons."

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

You seem to miss my point: It doesn't matter what is going on over there. If things are going absolutely perfectly people will still look at the situation and say, "well, let's get out of there then."

Since the spring of 2004 we kept hearing that we had to stay to make the security situation better. Well, now it's better so we can leave, right?

No, the only point you made is that you are a part of the group that has its mind made up and will not change regardless of any new potential data.

As for getting out, yes, it is getting better and the Iraqi forces appear to be taking more of a lead. This is certainly part of what we need to see to draw down troops. However, given the lack of data that you and I possess I will leave that decision up to Patreaus.

 

[Bonestorm]

No, the only point you made is that you are a part of the group that has its mind made up and will not change regardless of any new potential data.

As for getting out, yes, it is getting better and the Iraqi forces appear to be taking more of a lead. This is certainly part of what we need to see to draw down troops. However, given the lack of data that you and I possess I will leave that decision up to Patreaus.

Since you are being particularly dimwitted today, let me restate my point a third time: All the data in the world will not convince a majority of the American people that it is in our country's best interests to continue to have a troop presence in Iraq into perpetuity because, regardless of what the American people believe, whether they believe the situation is awful or perfect, either of those situations leads to the belief that our troops should come home. If things are great, bring them home. If things are bad, bring them home.

As for letting Petraeus decide, why in the hell would you want to do that? Of all the people in the world, next to Bush he is the one person that would want to see troops in Iraq forever if necessary to see his plan work out. He owns it now. He is the last person I would want to make that decision.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Since you are being particularly dimwitted today, let me restate my point a third time: All the data in the world will not convince a majority of the American people that it is in our country's best interests to continue to have a troop presence in Iraq into perpetuity because, regardless of what the American people believe, whether they believe the situation is awful or perfect, either of those situations leads to the belief that our troops should come home. If things are great, bring them home. If things are bad, bring them home.

As for letting Petraeus decide, why in the hell would you want to do that? Of all the people in the world, next to Bush he is the one person that would want to see troops in Iraq forever if necessary to see his plan work out. He owns it now. He is the last person I would want to make that decision.

Thank you for once again stating one of the points of the article that I highlighted in my original post. It amazes me you were able to make such a repetitive statement three whole times. You DO realize that was one of the points of the article I highlighted.... Don't you?

Tell me genius... WHO should make the decision? You? Me? Pelosi? Reid?

You base your OPINION on EMOTION. As do I. We do NOT have the data to make an informed decision. Patreaus' plan, whether you like him or not, has worked thus far. Not as quickly as he had hoped, but the signs (according to this article) are that things are improving. Yes, this means the lemmings will state, well then lets bring the troops home. If it is that simple and he agrees, then great, bring them home.

As I said, the decision should not be made by the opinion of an uninformed public. Regardless of how much you really really want it to be that way.

 

[LadyT]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5017532&page=1

for those that are actually open minded and wish to discuss, please feel free.

"Recent success in Iraq "would seem to hurt Obama, but it seems as though many Americans have a fixed opinion about this and are impervious to changing facts,"

I wonder how accurate this is. Obviously many on here seem to fall into that description.... to one side or the other.

"In the last year, the Iraq War has fallen out of the headlines, and it is unclear how that lack of media attention could influence public opinion on the issue. Comparing the first 10 weeks of 2007 and 2008, the amount of time devoted to Iraq on network news programs fell from 23 percent to 3 percent, according to a study by the Project for Excellence in Journalism. "

Given the lack of attention this year vs. last, it would seem that it would indeed be hard for the perception to change even if things do indeed get better.

The facts haven't changed. Bush, Cheney and the rest of the administration lied to get us into this clusterfck that is costing us untold billions in taxes, hurt our military, and is having periferal effects in our economy and home lives that aren't getting better.

Pointing to a simple reduction in troop deaths and/or injuries as an excuse to stay longer just isn't cutting it anymore. We don't want ANY DEATHS OR INJURIES to our soldiers.

Pull out of Iraq Now!

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

The facts haven't changed. Bush, Cheney and the rest of the administration lied to get us into this clusterfck that is costing us untold billions in taxes, hurt our military, and is having periferal effects in our economy and home lives that aren't getting better.

Pointing to a simple reduction in troop deaths and/or injuries as an excuse to stay longer just isn't cutting it anymore. We don't want ANY DEATHS OR INJURIES to our soldiers.

Pull out of Iraq Now!

Gotcha... you are part of the "mind made up" crowd. Understood.... and no, I do not disagree with your first paragraph.

 

[LadyT]

Gotcha... you are part of the "mind made up" crowd. Understood.... and no, I do not disagree with your first paragraph.

If by that you mean, I want our troops out NOW, then yes. My mind is made up and fck all if I'm changing it. You haven't presented any justifications for staying there and continueing Bush's flawed policies which have not stopped the violence.

BTW - if you don't think we should present our ideas of what course we should take, WTF are you doing on a board like this in the first place?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

If by that you mean, I want our troops out NOW, then yes. My mind is made up and fck all if I'm changing it. You haven't presented any justifications for staying there and continueing Bush's flawed policies which have not stopped the violence.

BTW - if you don't think we should present our ideas of what course we should take, WTF are you doing on a board like this in the first place?

I never suggested you shouldn't present your ideas on this board. The point of the article, which I doubt some have actually even read, was that when talking about Iraq, it may not matter that data is changing as many Americans.... like yourself... already have their minds on one course of action and will not change it regardless of any new data.

So you essentially confirmed what the article was saying. That Obama may not be hurt by his position on Iraq if Iraq data suggests it is getting better BECAUSE many people, like you, have already made up their minds based on the last five years.

I am not suggesting this is an irrational view given all the broken promises, misleading "facts" and "another six months" type comments from this administration. But that was the whole point. Even if Iraq starts pumping out good news... it will not likely hurt Obamas position given that the majority in this country have already made up their minds.