Calif Supreme Ct rejects San Fran handgun ban, says it violates STATE law

Little-Acorn

New member
Apparently the California state Supreme Court did not address the question of whether San Francisco's handgun ban violated the 2nd amendment (which it obviously did). They tossed out the ban on grounds that it violated STATE law instead.

Every little bit helps. :D

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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/09/BARB102OFQ.DTL

(04-09) 17:19 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- The state Supreme Court dealt a final blow Wednesday to San Francisco's voter-approved ban on handguns, rejecting the city's appeal of a lower-court ruling that sharply limited the ability of localities to regulate firearms.

The court's unanimous order was a victory for the National Rifle Association, which sued on behalf of gun owners, advocates and dealers a day after the measure passed with 58 percent of the vote in November 2005. The initiative has never taken effect.

The ordinance, Proposition H, would have forbidden San Francisco residents to possess handguns, exempting only law enforcement officers and others who needed guns for professional purposes. It would have also prohibited the manufacture, sale or distribution of any type of firearms or ammunition in San Francisco.

Lower courts ruled that the measure interfered with a statewide system of gun regulation, which bars certain types of weapons and allows others. The rulings did not address the scope of the constitutional right to bear arms under the Second Amendment, the focus of a pending U.S. Supreme Court case involving a handgun ban in Washington, D.C.

The state courts recognized that "law-abiding citizens are part of the solution, not part of the problem of violent crime," said Chuck Michel, lawyer for the plaintiffs in the NRA suit. "The authority of local cities to over-regulate firearms is very limited."

Alexis Thompson, spokeswoman for City Attorney Dennis Herrera, said the court's action was disappointing.

"As violence continues to be a pervasive problem in our city, we hope that we can explore other ways to abate the prevalence of handguns on our streets," she said.

In seeking state Supreme Court review, Herrera's office urged the justices to declare that "local governments retain significant, meaningful ... power to protect their residents against gun violence."

The city's lawyers said the use of guns in San Francisco homicides is rising, accounting for 61 percent of all killings in 2001 and 83 percent in 2005, and is particularly high in poor and minority neighborhoods. Gun violence costs San Francisco at least $31.2 million a year for hospital care, police and fire response and jail expenses, the city said.

But the courts said the ordinance was beyond the powers of local government.

Upholding a judge's June 2006 ruling, the First District Court of Appeal in San Francisco said state law left room for some municipal gun control - such as bans on the sale or possession of firearms on public fairgrounds - but "when it comes to regulating firearms, local governments are well advised to tread lightly."

The court relied on its own 1982 ruling striking down a San Francisco ordinance that would have prohibited handgun possession by anyone in the city limits. Drafters of Prop. H sought to comply with the ruling by limiting the ban to city residents.

In a 3-0 ruling Jan. 9, the appeals court said state law allows law-abiding Californians to possess handguns in their homes and businesses and lets them request a concealed-weapons permit or a judge's permission to carry guns in public - authority that leaves no room for a local handgun ban.

The court also said a 1999 state law banning the sale of the cheap pistols known as Saturday-night specials, and setting safety standards for legal firearms, implicitly prohibited local governments from outlawing all handguns.

The appeals judges also refused San Francisco's request to allow enforcement of Prop. H's ban on the manufacturer or sale of rifles and shotguns, saying the city must first rewrite the measure to narrow its scope.

The case is San Francisco vs. Fiscal, S160968.
 
Good on the California Supreme Court. Just bc San Francisco politicians think their population should be victims does not make it so.
 
I don't think the CA Supreme Court has jurisdiction to make decisions based on the 2nd Amendment. They only could make decisions based on State laws. At least as I understand it.
 
If the California constitution has a RKBA amendment that is interpreted by their supreme court to mirror the Second Amendment they can say that the law violates their amendment and the second amendment. If they did, it would give the Federal courts in the 9th circ the right to review their decision. By ruling ONLY on california legal grounds the feds have no right to review the decision because there is no federal question.
 
Oh come on - can anyone really rightly say that California is even a tadbit liberal anymore? They've got three strikes, more people on death row than anyone else in the nation, and now they're striking down San Fransisco's liberal laws. The only thing "liberal" about them is taxes high as fuck.
 
Soc, I'd like to remind you, that the city council wasn't involved in this measure at all. So your statement is slightly weakened, from being the bullshit of "politicans think their population should be held victim" to the bullshit of "the population of San Fransisco think the population of San Fransisco should be held victim".
Well if it was the people of San Franciso they don't have the right to limit peoples rights either. If the people of Wichita Kansas voted to make all speech critical of the president illegal it would still be an invalid law. The majority does not have the right to limit my consititutional rights, and the ONE thing I am sure of is that the Supremes are going to say that gun ownership is a personal right, I just don't know what level of scrutiny they are going to give that right. I believe it is a fundamental liberty interest, so rooted in our basic concepts of liberty and to be sacrosanct. I really don't think the court will come down that way, I think they will say it is subject to intermediate scrutiny, and that DC is going to have to show how their ban is reasonably written to avoid the harm they believe handguns present. I don't think the "fraidy cats" or the "nuts" are going to be happy.
 
Well if it was the people of San Franciso they don't have the right to limit peoples rights either. If the people of Wichita Kansas voted to make all speech critical of the president illegal it would still be an invalid law. The majority does not have the right to limit my consititutional rights, and the ONE thing I am sure of is that the Supremes are going to say that gun ownership is a personal right, I just don't know what level of scrutiny they are going to give that right. I believe it is a fundamental liberty interest, so rooted in our basic concepts of liberty and to be sacrosanct. I really don't think the court will come down that way, I think they will say it is subject to intermediate scrutiny, and that DC is going to have to show how their ban is reasonably written to avoid the harm they believe handguns present. I don't think the "fraidy cats" or the "nuts" are going to be happy.

That's not fair, Soc, I deleted that.
 
Nine federal appeals courts believe in a collective right to bear arms, two in an indivdual right, and the supreme court and one other court haven't ruled on it. The supreme court will lean towards a indivdual right, whether or not it's a "modified" individual right. If the second ammendment were a collective right, it would be the only of its kind in the constitution.
 
Nine federal appeals courts believe in a collective right to bear arms, two in an indivdual right, and the supreme court and one other court haven't ruled on it. The supreme court will lean towards a indivdual right, whether or not it's a "modified" individual right. If the second ammendment were a collective right, it would be the only of its kind in the constitution.

even though the circuits 'collective' rulings are completely wrong, i'm still trying to figure out how they can rationalize that the 2nd was intended for government regulated standing forces when the framers of the constitution clearly didn't trust standing armies.
 
If the California constitution has a RKBA amendment that is interpreted by their supreme court to mirror the Second Amendment they can say that the law violates their amendment and the second amendment. If they did, it would give the Federal courts in the 9th circ the right to review their decision.
Courts don't have "rights". They have authority to deal with some issues, and no authority to deal with others.

What cases a court can accept, depends both on what authority they have, and on what grounds the plaintiffs are suing. If the plaintiffs sue on grounds that the SF handgun ban violates the STATE constitution, then I believe that all Calif STATE courts can accept the case, and rule on whether it does, appealing all the way up to the CALIF Supreme Court if they want to.

If the plaintiffs sue on grounds that it violates the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution, than that case must go directly to a Federal court such as a Disctrict court. I think you're right in that a STATE court can't rule on whether the ban violates FEDERAL law (which includes the US Constitution).

By ruling ONLY on california legal grounds the feds have no right to review the decision because there is no federal question.

Correct, the feds can't take the case as it has been presented. And since the plaintiffs won in a state-law-only case, in the state's highest court, the city is out of luck, they can't appeal that case any higher.

If the Calif Supremes had ruled that the handgun ban did NOT violate Calif's constitution, the gun-rights people would similarly be out of luck in STATE courts. But they could then form a brand-new case saying the ban violated the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution if they wanted, and bring that case to a Federal court.
 
From the article, "Alexis Thompson, spokeswoman for City Attorney Dennis Herrera, said the court's action was disappointing.

"As violence continues to be a pervasive problem in our city, we hope that we can explore other ways to abate the prevalence of handguns on our streets," she said.


The gun violence is not coming from law abiding citizens in the City. A large majority of it is coming from several poverty stricken gang infested neighborhoods. Taking guns away from law abiding folks would have almost zero impact on what happens in the few troubled neighborhoods.
 
Courts don't have "rights". They have authority to deal with some issues, and no authority to deal with others.

What cases a court can accept, depends both on what authority they have, and on what grounds the plaintiffs are suing. If the plaintiffs sue on grounds that the SF handgun ban violates the STATE constitution, then I believe that all Calif STATE courts can accept the case, and rule on whether it does, appealing all the way up to the CALIF Supreme Court if they want to.

If the plaintiffs sue on grounds that it violates the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution, than that case must go directly to a Federal court such as a Disctrict court. I think you're right in that a STATE court can't rule on whether the ban violates FEDERAL law (which includes the US Constitution).



Correct, the feds can't take the case as it has been presented. And since the plaintiffs won in a state-law-only case, in the state's highest court, the city is out of luck, they can't appeal that case any higher.

If the Calif Supremes had ruled that the handgun ban did NOT violate Calif's constitution, the gun-rights people would similarly be out of luck in STATE courts. But they could then form a brand-new case saying the ban violated the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution if they wanted, and bring that case to a Federal court.


State courts can construe the meaning of the US Constitution and do so all the time (for example, in state criminal matters where a defendant challenges the fruits of a search on the basis of a violation of the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution). However, the state courts are not the final authority and any decision from a state court construing the US Constitution can be appealed to the US Supreme Court.

In this case, if the decision were based on both the state and US constitution , the issue would have been appealable in the federal courts. However, because the decision rests solely on the state constitution there can be no further appeals. My understanding is that state supreme courts typically do not reach issues arising under the US Constitution where the issues raised can be disposed of on state law grounds alone. However, where a state constitution may intrude on the federal rights of an individual (say, in this instance, the court found that the law was permissible under the state constitution but was impermissible pursuant to the second amendment) the state courts will address the federal question.

At least, that's my understanding.
 
State courts can construe the meaning of the US Constitution and do so all the time (for example, in state criminal matters where a defendant challenges the fruits of a search on the basis of a violation of the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution). However, the state courts are not the final authority and any decision from a state court construing the US Constitution can be appealed to the US Supreme Court.

In this case, if the decision were based on both the state and US constitution , the issue would have been appealable in the federal courts. However, because the decision rests solely on the state constitution there can be no further appeals. My understanding is that state supreme courts typically do not reach issues arising under the US Constitution where the issues raised can be disposed of on state law grounds alone. However, where a state constitution may intrude on the federal rights of an individual (say, in this instance, the court found that the law was permissible under the state constitution but was impermissible pursuant to the second amendment) the state courts will address the federal question.

At least, that's my understanding.
And you understanding is absolutely correct. State courts can and do all the time make rulings based on US Constitutional law. When I write a motion to supress I say the evidence was gathered in violation of the US and NM Constitutions and the court makes its ruling.
 
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