can modern christians reconcile

Don Quixote

cancer survivor
Contributor
the genocide of the cathars
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism[/ame]

the inquisition
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition[/ame]

the wars between protestants and catholics known as the reformation
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation[/ame]

this was all done in the name of god and to keep the faithful in line with the dictates of the church

personally, like a number of pro-choice people, i do not recommend abortion and would so counsel any female that asked my opinion, but i would go with any female to the doctor and hold her hand if she so chose to have an abortion and help her through the aftermath

i am saddened by those that believe that i will go to hell because i do not believe as they do if so, then so be it
 
To me, abortion is not a matter of you going to hell if you endorse or condone it. Abortion is the taking of innocent human life. Now, before the protagonists start in, we need not debate science and biology again, this is an irrefutable fact, human life begins at point of conception. You can construct all sorts of arguments about 'viability' or 'personhood' but the scientific facts and biology can't be refuted.

I am also pro-choice... I believe a woman should have the choice of whether or not to risk pregnancy by having unprotected sexual intercourse. If this choice is denied her, through rape or incestuous relations, she should have the choice to obtain an abortion. If the circumstances of pregnancy are a risk to her life, she should have the choice to terminate the pregnancy to save her own life, I will not deny her that choice.

I am opposed to unlimited choices and a woman's right to arbitrarily choose to terminate innocent human life, for the sake of vanity or convenience. I think personal responsibility has to play a role in life, and if a woman does something irresponsible, there should be a consequence for that, should she become pregnant. There are options available that do not result in the termination of innocent human life, and those options should be made available, but the woman shouldn't be allowed to obtain an abortion 'on demand' just because she is a woman with a fetus inside.

When I was in college studying psychology, my thesis was on the psychological effects of women who dealt with unwanted pregnancy. What I found, was pretty revealing. In every case study of women who had obtained an abortion, none were mentally healthy afterward. The degrees of this varied, from those who were suicidal to those who were severely depressed, to those who exhibited self-destructive patterns of behavior in their life. I think I interviewed close to 30 women, and the vast majority of those who had gotten an abortion, regretted the decision in the years following it. In the case studies involving women who delivered and gave their children up for adoption, only two of the 30 showed any signs of depression or negative mental health. The vast majority of these women stated that they never seriously considered abortion, and were glad they didn't. In a ratio of 2 to 1, the women who got abortions, said they wished someone had told them how they were going to feel afterward, they would have not gone through with it.

You see Don, from your perspective, you feel like you are doing someone a favor by "being there" and helping them go through an abortion, but there is something about the act of taking a human life that is not your own. It's something you sometimes don't realize or understand until you do it. Soldiers who have been in combat and had to kill people, can relate to this feeling. It changes you as a person, and it is something that many people have difficulty living with afterward. The abortion clinic doesn't tell you this, they don't counsel women about it, they are in business to do abortions, and that is all that matters to them.

I do not want to force my personal 'religious' view on others, that isn't where I am coming from. I just want us to be honest about what we are doing. Let's get on the same proverbial page with regard to the act of abortion, and understand it for what it is. We can have an intellectual debate on when it is appropriate to terminate innocent human life, we can make exceptions for the rare and unusual circumstances, but to deny science and biology, and refuse to acknowledge what we are doing, and to continue insisting this is some "right" a woman has, is deplorable and reprehensible as a civilized society.
 
To me, abortion is not a matter of you going to hell if you endorse or condone it. Abortion is the taking of innocent human life. Now, before the protagonists start in, we need not debate science and biology again, this is an irrefutable fact, human life begins at point of conception. You can construct all sorts of arguments about 'viability' or 'personhood' but the scientific facts and biology can't be refuted.

I am also pro-choice... I believe a woman should have the choice of whether or not to risk pregnancy by having unprotected sexual intercourse. If this choice is denied her, through rape or incestuous relations, she should have the choice to obtain an abortion. If the circumstances of pregnancy are a risk to her life, she should have the choice to terminate the pregnancy to save her own life, I will not deny her that choice.

I am opposed to unlimited choices and a woman's right to arbitrarily choose to terminate innocent human life, for the sake of vanity or convenience. I think personal responsibility has to play a role in life, and if a woman does something irresponsible, there should be a consequence for that, should she become pregnant. There are options available that do not result in the termination of innocent human life, and those options should be made available, but the woman shouldn't be allowed to obtain an abortion 'on demand' just because she is a woman with a fetus inside.

When I was in college studying psychology, my thesis was on the psychological effects of women who dealt with unwanted pregnancy. What I found, was pretty revealing. In every case study of women who had obtained an abortion, none were mentally healthy afterward. The degrees of this varied, from those who were suicidal to those who were severely depressed, to those who exhibited self-destructive patterns of behavior in their life. I think I interviewed close to 30 women, and the vast majority of those who had gotten an abortion, regretted the decision in the years following it. In the case studies involving women who delivered and gave their children up for adoption, only two of the 30 showed any signs of depression or negative mental health. The vast majority of these women stated that they never seriously considered abortion, and were glad they didn't. In a ratio of 2 to 1, the women who got abortions, said they wished someone had told them how they were going to feel afterward, they would have not gone through with it.

You see Don, from your perspective, you feel like you are doing someone a favor by "being there" and helping them go through an abortion, but there is something about the act of taking a human life that is not your own. It's something you sometimes don't realize or understand until you do it. Soldiers who have been in combat and had to kill people, can relate to this feeling. It changes you as a person, and it is something that many people have difficulty living with afterward. The abortion clinic doesn't tell you this, they don't counsel women about it, they are in business to do abortions, and that is all that matters to them.

I do not want to force my personal 'religious' view on others, that isn't where I am coming from. I just want us to be honest about what we are doing. Let's get on the same proverbial page with regard to the act of abortion, and understand it for what it is. We can have an intellectual debate on when it is appropriate to terminate innocent human life, we can make exceptions for the rare and unusual circumstances, but to deny science and biology, and refuse to acknowledge what we are doing, and to continue insisting this is some "right" a woman has, is deplorable and reprehensible as a civilized society.

three things

1 - i have killed, though as a civilian in a combat zone

2 - not being female, i do not think i have the right to tell a woman what to do about abortion

3 - i have counseled women with regard to abortion having seen the results of such on the women
 
I am also pro-choice... I believe a woman should have the choice of whether or not to risk pregnancy by having unprotected sexual intercourse.

I believe a woman has that choice and the choice to have an abortion.

But anyway, what if a woman has protected sexual intercourse and the condom breaks? That wasn't her choice any more than going down a dark alley would make rape her choice.
 
I believe a woman has that choice and the choice to have an abortion.

But anyway, what if a woman has protected sexual intercourse and the condom breaks? That wasn't her choice any more than going down a dark alley would make rape her choice.

all contraceptive methods (except abstinence) have the possibility of failure

abstinence just is not my style though
 
all contraceptive methods (except abstinence) have the possibility of failure

abstinence just is not my style though

Then you AND the woman, should be willing to accept the personal responsibility for a pregnancy you caused. An abortion is just an easy way out for you, at the ultimate cost of another human being. I don't feel that ANYONE is entitled to that choice.

You and others, have convinced yourselves that a human fetus is something other than a human life. Since you don't have to look it in the eye when you kill it, and the victim can't speak for itself, you figure the blood isn't on your hands, but it's just as heinous as any other murder, and unlike a civilian defending themselves against attack, or a soldier at war, this murder is committed on the most innocent of all life, the unborn.
 
Then you AND the woman, should be willing to accept the personal responsibility for a pregnancy you caused. An abortion is just an easy way out for you, at the ultimate cost of another human being. I don't feel that ANYONE is entitled to that choice.

You and others, have convinced yourselves that a human fetus is something other than a human life. Since you don't have to look it in the eye when you kill it, and the victim can't speak for itself, you figure the blood isn't on your hands, but it's just as heinous as any other murder, and unlike a civilian defending themselves against attack, or a soldier at war, this murder is committed on the most innocent of all life, the unborn.

nah, its just in the vacuum tube, on, suck fetus out of womb, thunk in vacuum receptical, off.

fetal hemoglobin....the fetus/baby is breathing....you are not allowed to murder a person who has become a vegetable...but you can murder a baby
 
Then you AND the woman, should be willing to accept the personal responsibility for a pregnancy you caused.

A women does feel the responsibility, and she can deal with that responsibility by having an abortion or having the child. It's a choice all women should have.
 
It's interesting how often people who try to defend "pro-choice" insist the only objection to killing unborn human children is derived from religious beliefs. Classsic example of the strawman argument.

While it is true most objections to legalized abortion comes from the religious sector, the objections are founded in the hard science of biology that what is being killed is a living human being. Nor does it take religion to demand that all living humans be recognized as deserving basic human rights, and as living humans, demand from society the same levels of protection of said rights that society grants other humans of that society. Without that basic tenet of equality for all humans, no society is truly free, nor are they truly just. We who oppose legalized abortion oppose it as much for it's secular injustice as we do for the religious principle of honoring all human life as a creation of God.
 
It's interesting how often people who try to defend "pro-choice" insist the only objection to killing unborn human children is derived from religious beliefs. Classsic example of the strawman argument.

While it is true most objections to legalized abortion comes from the religious sector, the objections are founded in the hard science of biology that what is being killed is a living human being. Nor does it take religion to demand that all living humans be recognized as deserving basic human rights, and as living humans, demand from society the same levels of protection of said rights that society grants other humans of that society. Without that basic tenet of equality for all humans, no society is truly free, nor are they truly just. We who oppose legalized abortion oppose it as much for it's secular injustice as we do for the religious principle of honoring all human life as a creation of God.

If "science" has "proven" that abortion is wrong, then why are scientists and biologists generally one of the most pro-choice crowds?
 
If "science" has "proven" that abortion is wrong, then why are scientists and biologists generally one of the most pro-choice crowds?

You're not a scientist, WM, so obviously you just wouldn't understand.

I think that's how it works.
 
i am saddened by those that believe that i will go to hell because i do not believe as they do if so, then so be it

DQ,

As a Christian, I have no idea whether or not you will go to Heaven. Despite the fact that I am pro-life, I do not believe that anyone who is pro-choice (or even pro-abortion) is definitely bound for hell. I believe we are all sinners. I believe that regardless of your beliefs you must reconcile your sins with God in order to avoid hell and according to my beliefs the ONLY way you can reconcile those sins is through Jesus Christ. I do not believe that abortion, homosexuality or any other sin in and of itself can interfere with your reconciliation with God.

You might even be an abortion doctor and I believe that you can still make piece with God.

I agree with you that it is sad that some Christians believe they determine who will and who will not get into Heaven. If it were up to me, y'all would be in big trouble... well, unless you are a hot looking female... er well, I suppose I should leave the rest of that out.

Immie
 
DQ,

As a Christian, I have no idea whether or not you will go to Heaven. Despite the fact that I am pro-life, I do not believe that anyone who is pro-choice (or even pro-abortion) is definitely bound for hell. I believe we are all sinners. I believe that regardless of your beliefs you must reconcile your sins with God in order to avoid hell and according to my beliefs the ONLY way you can reconcile those sins is through Jesus Christ. I do not believe that abortion, homosexuality or any other sin in and of itself can interfere with your reconciliation with God.

You might even be an abortion doctor and I believe that you can still make piece with God.

I agree with you that it is sad that some Christians believe they determine who will and who will not get into Heaven. If it were up to me, y'all would be in big trouble... well, unless you are a hot looking female... er well, I suppose I should leave the rest of that out.

Immie

There can be no peace with god.
 
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