Do EV and Green Energy subsidies distort the market and are they unfair?

QP!

QP!

Verified User
If you only listen to certain Derps on this site you would be lead to believe that clean energy and EV subsidies are distorting the playing from Ice vehicles and Oil and Gas, by not allowing consumers to pay the full and proper price of clean energy due to it being subsidized by the government.

For anyone reading this, it is almost certain that Oil & Gas companies, have enjoyed massive subsidies for the entirety of your life, that are now embedded benefits paying forward, and even as Oil and Gas companies enjoy record quarterly profits now they still are reaping the subsidies.

ICE vehicles have also enjoyed massive subsidies and bail outs for decades, all priced in to help discount the cost of the ICE vehicles you buy today.

So can we all agree that Derps need to stop citing Green Energy subsidies as wrong, when all they do is attempt to somewhat level the playing field with current subsidies to O&G and ICE vehicles, let alone all the embedded ones they have? Can we all agree to not blame Biden if O&G are receiving massive subsidies and the republiclowns won't support reform, as the increased cost and impact on the debt is on republiclowns and not Biden or the left?




Oil & Gas Giants Post Record Q1 Profits
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The high price of subsidies

...A conservative estimate from Oil Change International puts the U.S. total at around $20.5 billion annually, including $14.7 billion in federal subsidies and $5.8 billion in state-level incentives. A whopping 80 percent of this goes to oil and gas (with the rest supporting coal), and most of the subsidies are in the form of tax deductions and exemptions and other “obscure tax loopholes and accounting tricks” that result in massive avoided costs for fossil fuel producers.
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H.R.1483 - End Oil and Gas Tax Subsidies Act of 2023
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Factbox: Biden budget to target U.S. fossil fuel subsidies
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Big Oil says to politicians 'Give us Billions of the tax payer cash and we will give you back millions to use in your campaigns'.


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So seriously can we put the Derps aside and recognize that if any legacy technologies or products enjoy not just embedded generations of subsidies and current subsidies and the only thing we focus on is the new technology and products that get subsidies as the wrong, that is way to ensure we never advance as a society and ensure old tech and products out compete the new ones, due to their subsidies.

Can we push the derps out of discussions like this and understand the only thing that gets anywhere near a fair playing field when one side has such a current and legacy advantage is to give the new side the same advantage while phasing it to the old side. At some point in the middle things reach balance and fairness.
 
The entire point of "green energy" subsidies is to distort the market, and of course they do.

Might as well be asking if water is wet.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The entire point of "green energy" subsidies is to distort the market, and of course they do.

Might as well be asking if water is wet.
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What you say is like the guy jumping out and starting the marathon an hour before anyone else starts complaining that if anything is done to slow him or help the other catch up that is a form of subsidy.


And it WOULD be. But it would also be FAIR to do.

The subsidies for green energy distort the current market back closer to fair and balanced.
 
QP! said:
What you say is like the guy jumping out and starting the marathon an hour before anyone else starts complaining that if anything is done to slow him or help the other catch up that is a form of subsidy.


And it WOULD be. But it would also be FAIR to do.

The subsidies for green energy distort the current market back closer to fair and balanced.
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Bull Shit....Oil and Gas are harmed at every turn....the best interests of the people is harmed at every turn.....BECAUSE UTOPIA......because WOKE is anti-human.....our suffering is required.
 
The problem is that the subsidies are only being given to the greenies.

Why not give them to makers of both products to lower the costs for the consumer across the board.

Back when oil were getting subsidies there were no EV's but now, especially under Biden, he has singled out one product that he likes to give them an unfair advantage.

He is not letting the consumers decide which product they like they best, he is trying to force them into that decision by granting favoritism.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Bull Shit....Oil and Gas are harmed at every turn....the best interests of the people is harmed at every turn.....BECAUSE UTOPIA......because WOKE is anti-human.....our suffering is required.
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Wait... what?


You are saying Oil and Gas are hurt when given billions and billions of tax payer dollars as subsidies?

Oil and Gas may in fact be the most subsidies industries in the history of subsidies.

So explain very specifically how the 'turn' of handing them taxpayer money and other subsidies, to lower their costs and boost their record profits this last quarter harmed them?
 
Tinkerpeach said:
The problem is that the subsidies are only being given to the greenies.

Why not give them to makers of both products to lower the costs for the consumer across the board.

Back when oil were getting subsidies there were no EV's but now, especially under Biden, he has singled out one product that he likes to give them an unfair advantage.

He is not letting the consumers decide which product they like they best, he is trying to force them into that decision by granting favoritism.
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LIES.

It's not just the US: according to the International Energy Agency, fossil fuel handouts hit a global high of $1 trillion in 2022 – the same year Big Oil pulled in a record $4 trillion of income. In the United States, by some estimates taxpayers pay about $20 billion dollars every year to the fossil fuel industry.May 3, 2023

cite
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Factbox: U.S. states woo automakers with $17 billion in subsidies since 1976
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Lightbringer said:
A subsidy by definition distorts the market and what exactly do you mean by clean energy?

You don't really believe EVs are clean do you?
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WRONG.

If you already have a subsidies on the other side and they are NOT being removed then the only way to undistort the market and create a fair playing field is to add a subsidy on the other side.


If your goal is to see which form of energy can outcompete the other, in a free market you CANNOT give O&G trillions in subsidies and then say Clean energy must get none as two wrongs do not make a right and thus Clean energy must compete with the Trillion dollar deficit and if it cannot cut that is the free market speaking. Either remove the advantages from O&G or give clean energy the same benefits. That is the only way to undistort the market.
 
Tinkerpeach said:
Your link doesn't list anything recently does it?

All it does is contain overall totals.

How much have they received this year?
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You won't find good 2023 data until at least one quarter into 2024 due to the mass amounts of data to examine.

Lots of 2022 data just came out in the last few months.

...Does the United States Provide a Lot of Fossil Fuel Subsidies?
Yes, the United States also provides a lot of fossil fuel subsidies every year. ... The United States is estimated to provide a total of $20 billion in fossil fuel subsidies every year. Approximately 70 percent of these subsidies come from the federal government, and another 30 percent come from the state government....
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...It's not just the US: according to the International Energy Agency, fossil fuel handouts hit a global high of $1 trillion in 2022 – the same year Big Oil pulled in a record $4 trillion of income. In the United States, by some estimates taxpayers pay about $20 billion dollars every year to the fossil fuel industry. May 3, 2023

cite
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