FDR Prolonged the Depression

Timshel

New member
It's amusing that these guys think THEY figured this out, but...

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate
By
Meg Sullivan
* 8/10/2004 12:23:12 PM

Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.

"Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump," said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA's Department of Economics. "We found that a relapse isn't likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies."

In an article in the August issue of the Journal of Political Economy, Ohanian and Cole blame specific anti-competition and pro-labor measures that Roosevelt promoted and signed into law June 16, 1933.

"President Roosevelt believed that excessive competition was responsible for the Depression by reducing prices and wages, and by extension reducing employment and demand for goods and services," said Cole, also a UCLA professor of economics. "So he came up with a recovery package that would be unimaginable today, allowing businesses in every industry to collude without the threat of antitrust prosecution and workers to demand salaries about 25 percent above where they ought to have been, given market forces. The economy was poised for a beautiful recovery, but that recovery was stalled by these misguided policies."

Using data collected in 1929 by the Conference Board and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Cole and Ohanian were able to establish average wages and prices across a range of industries just prior to the Depression. By adjusting for annual increases in productivity, they were able to use the 1929 benchmark to figure out what prices and wages would have been during every year of the Depression had Roosevelt's policies not gone into effect. They then compared those figures with actual prices and wages as reflected in the Conference Board data.

In the three years following the implementation of Roosevelt's policies, wages in 11 key industries averaged 25 percent higher than they otherwise would have done, the economists calculate. But unemployment was also 25 percent higher than it should have been, given gains in productivity.

Meanwhile, prices across 19 industries averaged 23 percent above where they should have been, given the state of the economy. With goods and services that much harder for consumers to afford, demand stalled and the gross national product floundered at 27 percent below where it otherwise might have been.

"High wages and high prices in an economic slump run contrary to everything we know about market forces in economic downturns," Ohanian said. "As we've seen in the past several years, salaries and prices fall when unemployment is high. By artificially inflating both, the New Deal policies short-circuited the market's self-correcting forces."

The policies were contained in the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), which exempted industries from antitrust prosecution if they agreed to enter into collective bargaining agreements that significantly raised wages. Because protection from antitrust prosecution all but ensured higher prices for goods and services, a wide range of industries took the bait, Cole and Ohanian found. By 1934 more than 500 industries, which accounted for nearly 80 percent of private, non-agricultural employment, had entered into the collective bargaining agreements called for under NIRA.

Cole and Ohanian calculate that NIRA and its aftermath account for 60 percent of the weak recovery. Without the policies, they contend that the Depression would have ended in 1936 instead of the year when they believe the slump actually ended: 1943.

Roosevelt's role in lifting the nation out of the Great Depression has been so revered that Time magazine readers cited it in 1999 when naming him the 20th century's second-most influential figure.

"This is exciting and valuable research," said Robert E. Lucas Jr., the 1995 Nobel Laureate in economics, and the John Dewey Distinguished Service Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago. "The prevention and cure of depressions is a central mission of macroeconomics, and if we can't understand what happened in the 1930s, how can we be sure it won't happen again?"

NIRA's role in prolonging the Depression has not been more closely scrutinized because the Supreme Court declared the act unconstitutional within two years of its passage.

"Historians have assumed that the policies didn't have an impact because they were too short-lived, but the proof is in the pudding," Ohanian said. "We show that they really did artificially inflate wages and prices."

Even after being deemed unconstitutional, Roosevelt's anti-competition policies persisted — albeit under a different guise, the scholars found. Ohanian and Cole painstakingly documented the extent to which the Roosevelt administration looked the other way as industries once protected by NIRA continued to engage in price-fixing practices for four more years.

The number of antitrust cases brought by the Department of Justice fell from an average of 12.5 cases per year during the 1920s to an average of 6.5 cases per year from 1935 to 1938, the scholars found. Collusion had become so widespread that one Department of Interior official complained of receiving identical bids from a protected industry (steel) on 257 different occasions between mid-1935 and mid-1936. The bids were not only identical but also 50 percent higher than foreign steel prices. Without competition, wholesale prices remained inflated, averaging 14 percent higher than they would have been without the troublesome practices, the UCLA economists calculate.

NIRA's labor provisions, meanwhile, were strengthened in the National Relations Act, signed into law in 1935. As union membership doubled, so did labor's bargaining power, rising from 14 million strike days in 1936 to about 28 million in 1937. By 1939 wages in protected industries remained 24 percent to 33 percent above where they should have been, based on 1929 figures, Cole and Ohanian calculate. Unemployment persisted. By 1939 the U.S. unemployment rate was 17.2 percent, down somewhat from its 1933 peak of 24.9 percent but still remarkably high. By comparison, in May 2003, the unemployment rate of 6.1 percent was the highest in nine years.

Recovery came only after the Department of Justice dramatically stepped enforcement of antitrust cases nearly four-fold and organized labor suffered a string of setbacks, the economists found.

"The fact that the Depression dragged on for years convinced generations of economists and policy-makers that capitalism could not be trusted to recover from depressions and that significant government intervention was required to achieve good outcomes," Cole said. "Ironically, our work shows that the recovery would have been very rapid had the government not intervened."

-UCLA-
 
INCOMING!!11!!11SHIFTPLUSONE

:hide:

Surgeon General's Warning: The content of this thread will become hazardous to the health of those who argue other than the standard response of how FDR saved America. Much derision will be heaped upon you, even the fruit of your loins will be stained forever with your unsanctioned foray into this line of thought. Due to the hazardous nature of the thread, children under 13 should not participate or even read the thread without parental consent and supervision.
 
I can't believe there is still doubt, FDR continued what Hoover did, his own architect admitted it:

"We didn't admit it at the time, but practically the whole New Deal was extrapolated from programs that Hoover started." - Rexford Guy Tugwell, New Deal Architect


And Obama will continue with the spending Bush has done and he and lefties will rewrite history to pretend that he is on a course of "change", just like they did with FDR and Hoover.
The most dangerous thing to future freedom is a Liberal Republican.
 
The most dangerous thing to future freedom is a Liberal Republican.
//

So why did you vote for Bush Twice ?

And what does FDR have to Do with now ? You righties keep retreating into the distant past.
Lets talk Lincoln.
:D
 
Last edited:
There's no question that FDR's policies extended the depression from a year or so to almost ten. The socialist New Deal cemented Democrat power.
 
There's no question that FDR's policies extended the depression from a year or so to almost ten. The socialist New Deal cemented Democrat power.

No question? We get one paper from 2 UCLA economists and suddenly there is "no question" about this even though almost all other economists disagree with their conclusions?

Interesting.
 
No question? We get one paper from 2 UCLA economists and suddenly there is "no question" about this even though almost all other economists disagree with their conclusions?

Interesting.

Well, Joe The Plumber also agrees. It’s going to be in his book, “Joe The Plumber: Well, Plumb Me”
 
No question? We get one paper from 2 UCLA economists and suddenly there is "no question" about this even though almost all other economists disagree with their conclusions?

Interesting.
All other economists disagree? Where do you get that? FDR did not bring on the Great Depression but in extending (social works programs) and continuing (Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act) the policies of Hoover, FDR extended it.
The root problem is that Hoover has been repainted as this market capitalist guy who followed what Coolidge did when in reality Hoover passed the largest ever tariff increases and started many of the social works programs that any free market capitalist despises.

"In the United States 1,028 economists signed a petition against this legislation, and after it was passed, many countries retaliated with their own increased tariffs on U.S. goods, and American exports and imports plunged by more than half. In the opinion of most economists, the Smoot-Hawley Act was a catalyst for the severe reduction in U.S.-European trade from its high in 1929 to its depressed levels of 1932 that accompany the start of the Great Depression.
Unemployment was at 7.8% in 1930 when the Smoot-Hawley tariff was passed, but it jumped to 16.3% in 1931, 24.9% in 1932, and 25.1% in 1933"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley

Roosevelt continued that.
 
All other economists disagree? Where do you get that? FDR did not bring on the Great Depression but in extending (social works programs) and continuing (Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act) the policies of Hoover, FDR extended it.
The root problem is that Hoover has been repainted as this market capitalist guy who followed what Coolidge did when in reality Hoover passed the largest ever tariff increases and started many of the social works programs that any free market capitalist despises.

"In the United States 1,028 economists signed a petition against this legislation, and after it was passed, many countries retaliated with their own increased tariffs on U.S. goods, and American exports and imports plunged by more than half. In the opinion of most economists, the Smoot-Hawley Act was a catalyst for the severe reduction in U.S.-European trade from its high in 1929 to its depressed levels of 1932 that accompany the start of the Great Depression.
Unemployment was at 7.8% in 1930 when the Smoot-Hawley tariff was passed, but it jumped to 16.3% in 1931, 24.9% in 1932, and 25.1% in 1933"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley

Roosevelt continued that.


You don't know what you are talking about.
 
Joe The Plumber says – “That’s Socialism!” Oh look, there’s Wendy, the Plumber’s daughter! Wendy, what do you think?

Well folks, you heard it here – Wendy, The Plumber’s Daughter, could not agree with Joe The Plumber more – “That’s Socialism!” And here in the states that love America, we don’t hold with that! Thank you folks, oh, thank you, youre too kind. How do you like my handmade earrings? I was up making them last night, while Todd was darning Piper’s socks - that’s how Todd and I are folks, if I can tell you that without the filter of the mainstream media. Yep.
 
It's amusing that these guys think THEY figured this out, but...

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate
By
Meg Sullivan
* 8/10/2004 12:23:12 PM

Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.

"Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump," said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA's Department of Economics. "We found that a relapse isn't likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies."

In an article in the August issue of the Journal of Political Economy, Ohanian and Cole blame specific anti-competition and pro-labor measures that Roosevelt promoted and signed into law June 16, 1933.

"President Roosevelt believed that excessive competition was responsible for the Depression by reducing prices and wages, and by extension reducing employment and demand for goods and services," said Cole, also a UCLA professor of economics. "So he came up with a recovery package that would be unimaginable today, allowing businesses in every industry to collude without the threat of antitrust prosecution and workers to demand salaries about 25 percent above where they ought to have been, given market forces. The economy was poised for a beautiful recovery, but that recovery was stalled by these misguided policies."

Using data collected in 1929 by the Conference Board and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Cole and Ohanian were able to establish average wages and prices across a range of industries just prior to the Depression. By adjusting for annual increases in productivity, they were able to use the 1929 benchmark to figure out what prices and wages would have been during every year of the Depression had Roosevelt's policies not gone into effect. They then compared those figures with actual prices and wages as reflected in the Conference Board data.

In the three years following the implementation of Roosevelt's policies, wages in 11 key industries averaged 25 percent higher than they otherwise would have done, the economists calculate. But unemployment was also 25 percent higher than it should have been, given gains in productivity.

Meanwhile, prices across 19 industries averaged 23 percent above where they should have been, given the state of the economy. With goods and services that much harder for consumers to afford, demand stalled and the gross national product floundered at 27 percent below where it otherwise might have been.

"High wages and high prices in an economic slump run contrary to everything we know about market forces in economic downturns," Ohanian said. "As we've seen in the past several years, salaries and prices fall when unemployment is high. By artificially inflating both, the New Deal policies short-circuited the market's self-correcting forces."

The policies were contained in the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), which exempted industries from antitrust prosecution if they agreed to enter into collective bargaining agreements that significantly raised wages. Because protection from antitrust prosecution all but ensured higher prices for goods and services, a wide range of industries took the bait, Cole and Ohanian found. By 1934 more than 500 industries, which accounted for nearly 80 percent of private, non-agricultural employment, had entered into the collective bargaining agreements called for under NIRA.

Cole and Ohanian calculate that NIRA and its aftermath account for 60 percent of the weak recovery. Without the policies, they contend that the Depression would have ended in 1936 instead of the year when they believe the slump actually ended: 1943.

Roosevelt's role in lifting the nation out of the Great Depression has been so revered that Time magazine readers cited it in 1999 when naming him the 20th century's second-most influential figure.

"This is exciting and valuable research," said Robert E. Lucas Jr., the 1995 Nobel Laureate in economics, and the John Dewey Distinguished Service Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago. "The prevention and cure of depressions is a central mission of macroeconomics, and if we can't understand what happened in the 1930s, how can we be sure it won't happen again?"

NIRA's role in prolonging the Depression has not been more closely scrutinized because the Supreme Court declared the act unconstitutional within two years of its passage.

"Historians have assumed that the policies didn't have an impact because they were too short-lived, but the proof is in the pudding," Ohanian said. "We show that they really did artificially inflate wages and prices."

Even after being deemed unconstitutional, Roosevelt's anti-competition policies persisted — albeit under a different guise, the scholars found. Ohanian and Cole painstakingly documented the extent to which the Roosevelt administration looked the other way as industries once protected by NIRA continued to engage in price-fixing practices for four more years.

The number of antitrust cases brought by the Department of Justice fell from an average of 12.5 cases per year during the 1920s to an average of 6.5 cases per year from 1935 to 1938, the scholars found. Collusion had become so widespread that one Department of Interior official complained of receiving identical bids from a protected industry (steel) on 257 different occasions between mid-1935 and mid-1936. The bids were not only identical but also 50 percent higher than foreign steel prices. Without competition, wholesale prices remained inflated, averaging 14 percent higher than they would have been without the troublesome practices, the UCLA economists calculate.

NIRA's labor provisions, meanwhile, were strengthened in the National Relations Act, signed into law in 1935. As union membership doubled, so did labor's bargaining power, rising from 14 million strike days in 1936 to about 28 million in 1937. By 1939 wages in protected industries remained 24 percent to 33 percent above where they should have been, based on 1929 figures, Cole and Ohanian calculate. Unemployment persisted. By 1939 the U.S. unemployment rate was 17.2 percent, down somewhat from its 1933 peak of 24.9 percent but still remarkably high. By comparison, in May 2003, the unemployment rate of 6.1 percent was the highest in nine years.

Recovery came only after the Department of Justice dramatically stepped enforcement of antitrust cases nearly four-fold and organized labor suffered a string of setbacks, the economists found.

"The fact that the Depression dragged on for years convinced generations of economists and policy-makers that capitalism could not be trusted to recover from depressions and that significant government intervention was required to achieve good outcomes," Cole said. "Ironically, our work shows that the recovery would have been very rapid had the government not intervened."

-UCLA-


He did continue the policies of Hoover which Hoover acted too late on. Here again the mess was laid for someone to come clean up. He not only cleaned up the mess but laid the groundwork to avert the next cycle of cash in and bust.


Someone then took them down and look where we are again.
 
Good response, show me that proof that most economists don't think that FDR extended the depression then.


In fact, it is a great response, succinct and to the point. No excess verbiage or obfuscation.

This particular paper was notable because it differed from most assessments of FDR's policies in response to the Great Depression, not because it was in agreement with conventional wisdom.
 
Tell me. "Most" scientists believed we were heading into "Global Cooling" in the 70s, did that make them right? Or can we concede that sometimes the "conventional wisdom" may be mistaken?
 
Tell me. "Most" scientists believed we were heading into "Global Cooling" in the 70s, did that make them right? Or can we concede that sometimes the "conventional wisdom" may be mistaken?


Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension before posing dumbass questions like those above.
 
I can't believe there is still doubt, FDR continued what Hoover did, his own architect admitted it:

"We didn't admit it at the time, but practically the whole New Deal was extrapolated from programs that Hoover started." - Rexford Guy Tugwell, New Deal Architect


And Obama will continue with the spending Bush has done and he and lefties will rewrite history to pretend that he is on a course of "change", just like they did with FDR and Hoover.
The most dangerous thing to future freedom is a Liberal Republican.

YOu need to go study some history as you don't know what your talking about.
 
There's no question that FDR's policies extended the depression from a year or so to almost ten. The socialist New Deal cemented Democrat power.

What a moron! The Great Depresion was nearly 4 years old when FDR took office.

It took FDR about 3 years of hit or miss policies untill he adopted the economic policies of John Meynard Keynes and noted how the Swedish used deficit spending by the government to put money back in circulation. They were the first nation to recover from the Great Depresion by doing so.

I love these ideological second guessings of people who don't kwow what their talking about and haven't studied their history.
 
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