Fiscal conservatives != libertarians

[Timshel]

Many libertarians make the mistake of thinking that fiscal conservatives (like ditzy, ila and nova) agree with them on economics. That is, wrong and quite absurd. Fiscal conservatives support maintaining the status quo in the division of economic power or even a regression to a time when white male land onwers had even more power. They will use government interference in the market to achieve that and don't care about free markets. They only adopt free market rhetoric when talking about government aid for the poor or providing equal opportunities for minorities and women. This is why they will often support protectionist policies, the military industrial complex, bank bailouts, farm subsidies while complaining bitterly about welfare. This is also explains why they are STILL bitching about the civil rights era and the civil war.

The economic program of fiscal conservatives is socialism for the rich.

 

[Auster]

socialism for the rich

wacky oxymoron is wacky.

 

[/MSG/]

Many libertarians make the mistake of thinking that fiscal conservatives (like ditzy, ila and nova) agree with them on economics. That is, wrong and quite absurd. Fiscal conservatives support maintaining the status quo in the division of economic power or even a regression to a time when white male land onwers had even more power. They will use government interference in the market to achieve that and don't care about free markets. They only adopt free market rhetoric when talking about government aid for the poor or providing equal opportunities for minorities and women. This is why they will often support protectionist policies, the military industrial complex, bank bailouts, farm subsidies while complaining bitterly about welfare. This is also explains why they are STILL bitching about the civil rights era and the civil war.

The economic program of fiscal conservatives is socialism for the rich.

That's not fiscal conservatism then, it's just a different form of fiscal leftism.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

Perhaps you should learn more about fiscal conservatism before you trying calling it socialism for the rich.

 

[Timshel]

wacky oxymoron is wacky.

Are you another one of these Marxists that argues that unless the results are the utopian fantasy then it is not socialism? Socialism for the rich/politically connected is the norm in most socialist nations. Sometimes there is some sort of revolution and the old guard is thrown out for a new batch of crooks but it always ends the same.

Fiscal conservatives want to maintain the status quo and the flow of economic and political priveleges to those currently at the top. It does not matter if they are protected industries, the military industrial complex and/or other businesses dependent on statism like slave owners, private prisons and banks.

Libertarians, on the other hand, support political equality and free and open markets that lead to lots of turnover in the upper, middle and lower classes.

 

[Timshel]

That's not fiscal conservatism then, it's just a different form of fiscal leftism.

Yeah it is. Conservatism is about maintaining the status quo. Why else do conservatives rail about any help for the poor while supporting the military as a jobs program.

 

[/MSG/]

Perhaps you should learn more about fiscal conservatism before you trying calling it socialism for the rich.

No, I think more of what he's saying is that Libertarian Fiscal Conservatism is different from neo-fiscal conservatism, like what Dixie professes and so on. Us, who champion ACTUAL conservatism are opposed to many/all of what chicky salad outlined.

 

[Timshel]

Perhaps you should learn more about fiscal conservatism before you trying calling it socialism for the rich.

Your definition is faulty. They don't advocate free markets. I have had all the education I need from scumbag conservatives.

What else did the Bushs, Cheney and Reagan support? The conservatives only threw Bush under the bus in the last year of his administation when it became obvious they could not survive his legacy. But they really have not changed their views and another Bush may well be their standard bearer again.

Romney was not an advocate of free markets. He only cared about the wealthy and famously said he had nothing to offer the 47%. Free and dynamic markets are easy to sell to the poor as most just want an opportunity and hope. But Romney and the conservatives here have continued to blame the loss on those seeking handouts.

 

[Timshel]

No, I think more of what he's saying is that Libertarian Fiscal Conservatism is different from neo-fiscal conservatism, like what Dixie professes and so on. Us, who champion ACTUAL conservatism are opposed to many/all of what chicky salad outlined.

Yes. I don't think libertarians should drag themselves down with the conservative label. Liberal... market liberal and socially liberal has always fit us better.

There is nothing conservative about free markets. They are dynamic and bring change quickly, including social changes. Conservatives don't like change unless it involves some sort of regression.

 

[cawacko]

Many libertarians make the mistake of thinking that fiscal conservatives (like ditzy, ila and nova) agree with them on economics. That is, wrong and quite absurd. Fiscal conservatives support maintaining the status quo in the division of economic power or even a regression to a time when white male land onwers had even more power. They will use government interference in the market to achieve that and don't care about free markets. They only adopt free market rhetoric when talking about government aid for the poor or providing equal opportunities for minorities and women. This is why they will often support protectionist policies, the military industrial complex, bank bailouts, farm subsidies while complaining bitterly about welfare. This is also explains why they are STILL bitching about the civil rights era and the civil war.

The economic program of fiscal conservatives is socialism for the rich.

How do you differentiate those on the right who call themselves fiscally conservative vs. those on the left who call themselves fiscally conservative?

 

[Auster]

Are you another one of these Marxists that argues that unless the results are the utopian fantasy then it is not socialism? Socialism for the rich/politically connected is the norm in most socialist nations. Sometimes there is some sort of revolution and the old guard is thrown out for a new batch of crooks but it always ends the same.

Fiscal conservatives want to maintain the status quo and the flow of economic and political priveleges to those currently at the top. It does not matter if they are protected industries, the military industrial complex and/or other businesses dependent on statism like slave owners, private prisons and banks.

Libertarians, on the other hand, support political equality and free and open markets that lead to lots of turnover in the upper, middle and lower classes.

Me, Marxist? Hardly. But I've found it impossible not to learn more about the philosophy and the practice of Marxism. The philosophy is interesting and worth a look; the practice, while not the worst, is inferior from more standpoints than one imo

What I keep coming back to is exactly that, that the elimination of the middle and upper classes in favor of a slightly 'improved working class'. An analogous return to the feudal system; a ruling class to govern the masses, 'in it's best interest'. The removal of merit in determining the proper place of an individual in society. The ultimate plutocracy aristocracy; for eventually (and rather soon) technology will allow the rich to be truly biologically superior, a noble strain of Homo Sapiens.

The way I see it is that there will always be a ruling class, and the definition of anarchy is the absence of this class' influence. Anarchy is often resolved in the easiest way possible, with despotism (possibly using a puppet government).

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

or even a regression to a time when white male land onwers had even more power.

insta darla thanks earned right there.

This is why they will often support protectionist policies, the military industrial complex,

yes.

bank bailouts,

I think this one is too hard to peg down. the bank bailouts is one of those really weird issues where every political spectrum had those that supported it and those that didn't.

farm subsidies while complaining bitterly about welfare.

Agreed. But I bet if you put their feet to the fire, they might back off of the farm subsidies. I don't see people really getting riled up about paying money to the farmers. That's probably more of a "look the other way" issue for some conservatives.

This is also explains why they are STILL bitching about the civil rights era and the civil war.

I dont see how that ties into the other stuff you mentioned.

The economic program of fiscal conservatives is socialism for the rich.

If I ignore your hyperbole here, I mostly agree with you.

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

Romney was not an advocate of free markets. He only cared about the wealthy and famously said he had nothing to offer the 47%. Free and dynamic markets are easy to sell to the poor as most just want an opportunity and hope. But Romney and the conservatives here have continued to blame the loss on those seeking handouts.

the 47% comment was about political strategy. please don't be so stupid. He was talking about the 47% the same way obama would refer to not bothering with campaigning in texas. You see, in elections, you try to win votes. And you have to sometimes focus on areas/demographics where you can get these votes, while forgoing others that aren't likely to give you their vote in the first place.

 

[Timshel]

insta darla thanks earned right there.



yes.



I think this one is too hard to peg down. the bank bailouts is one of those really weird issues where every political spectrum had those that supported it and those that didn't.



Agreed. But I bet if you put their feet to the fire, they might back off of the farm subsidies. I don't see people really getting riled up about paying money to the farmers. That's probably more of a "look the other way" issue for some conservatives.



I dont see how that ties into the other stuff you mentioned.



If I ignore your hyperbole here, I mostly agree with you.

I don't know of any libertarians that supported bank bailouts.

The civil right/civil war ties in because it is part of their desire to maintain the division of wealth. Nothing could be more opposed to free markets than slavery. The denial of civil rights was/is used to create a barrier to market entry, to burden certain classes and to impoverish them.

 

[Timshel]

the 47% comment was about political strategy. please don't be so stupid. He was talking about the 47% the same way obama would refer to not bothering with campaigning in texas. You see, in elections, you try to win votes. And you have to sometimes focus on areas/demographics where you can get these votes, while forgoing others that aren't likely to give you their vote in the first place.

Romney is politically stupid, a naive sissy boy and tone deaf. Just because you don't pay taxes does not mean you vote Democrat, believe yourself a victim, that the government has a responsiblity to take care of you or that you are entitled to healthcare, housing and food. It does not mean you take no personal responsibility for your life or care for yourself.

He quite clearly made several moral claims about this demographic showing not only disregard but disdain.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Many libertarians make the mistake of thinking that fiscal conservatives (like ditzy, ila and nova) agree with them on economics. That is, wrong and quite absurd. Fiscal conservatives support maintaining the status quo in the division of economic power or even a regression to a time when white male land onwers had even more power. They will use government interference in the market to achieve that and don't care about free markets. They only adopt free market rhetoric when talking about government aid for the poor or providing equal opportunities for minorities and women. This is why they will often support protectionist policies, the military industrial complex, bank bailouts, farm subsidies while complaining bitterly about welfare. This is also explains why they are STILL bitching about the civil rights era and the civil war.

The economic program of fiscal conservatives is socialism for the rich.

did it hurt when you pulled the above out of your ass?

 

[cawacko]

did it hurt when you pulled the above out of your ass?

That's why I was trying to get a better understanding of the difference between Republicans who call themselves fiscally conservative and Democrats who call themselves fiscally conservative (such as the blue dogs).

 

[Robo]

The economic program of fiscal conservatives is socialism for the rich.

Ditto for the “economic leftist programmers.” Corporate Law Firms, General Motors, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates and Hollywood millionaires and more.

The only real difference between the right and the left is which rich bastards they allow to feed at the government trough first before they doll out the pittance to the moron minions to bribe their fucking vote.