Gödel's Loophole

[christiefan915]

There have been a lot of articles about how trump would become a dictator if re-elected. Most people think it's highly unlikely this could happen in the US.

In the Oppenheimer bio, American Prometheus, Oppy* is sponsoring a foreign colleague, Kurt Gödel, for US citizenship. Gödel is a brilliant mathematician from the Czech Republic. While he's studying for the naturalization test under Oppy's tutelage, he asserts that there's an inner contradiction in our Constitution that could legally turn American democracy into a dictatorship. My question is, can this be proven?

The speculation is that there's a problem involving Article V that describes the amendment process. "The loophole is that Article V's procedures can be applied to Article V itself. It can therefore be altered in a "downward" direction, making it easier to alter the article again in the future. So even if, as is now the case, amending the Constitution is difficult to bring about, once Article V is downwardly amended, the next attempt to do so will be easier, and the one after that easier still.

Other writers have speculated that Gödel may have had other aspects of the Constitution in mind as well, including the abuse of gerrymandering, the Electoral College, and the presidential pardon."[SUP][6]

[The above] has been called "one of the great unsolved problems of constitutional law" by F. E. Guerra-Pujol.[SUP][1][/SUP]
[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_Loophole


*not going to type out "Oppenheimer" each time

 

[goat]

Government has never cared about the constitution, it does what it wants. Covid lockdowns and mandatory jabs are the latest examples.

 

[BidenPresident]

There have been a lot of articles about how trump would become a dictator if re-elected. Most people think it's highly unlikely this could happen in the US.

In the Oppenheimer bio, American Prometheus, Oppy* is sponsoring a foreign colleague, Kurt Gödel, for US citizenship. Gödel is a brilliant mathematician from the Czech Republic. While he's studying for the naturalization test under Oppy's tutelage, he asserts that there's an inner contradiction in our Constitution that could legally turn American democracy into a dictatorship. My question is, can this be proven?

The speculation is that there's a problem involving Article V that describes the amendment process. "The loophole is that Article V's procedures can be applied to Article V itself. It can therefore be altered in a "downward" direction, making it easier to alter the article again in the future. So even if, as is now the case, amending the Constitution is difficult to bring about, once Article V is downwardly amended, the next attempt to do so will be easier, and the one after that easier still.

Other writers have speculated that Gödel may have had other aspects of the Constitution in mind as well, including the abuse of gerrymandering, the Electoral College, and the presidential pardon."[SUP][6]

[The above] has been called "one of the great unsolved problems of constitutional law" by F. E. Guerra-Pujol.[SUP][1][/SUP]
[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_Loophole


*not going to type out "Oppenheimer" each time

What does this have to do with Trump?

 

[BidenPresident]

Government has never cared about the constitution, it does what it wants. Covid lockdowns and mandatory jabs are the latest examples.

Public health. Never go outside if you hate other people.

 

[BidenPresident]

There have been a lot of articles about how trump would become a dictator if re-elected. Most people think it's highly unlikely this could happen in the US.

In the Oppenheimer bio, American Prometheus, Oppy* is sponsoring a foreign colleague, Kurt Gödel, for US citizenship. Gödel is a brilliant mathematician from the Czech Republic. While he's studying for the naturalization test under Oppy's tutelage, he asserts that there's an inner contradiction in our Constitution that could legally turn American democracy into a dictatorship. My question is, can this be proven?

The speculation is that there's a problem involving Article V that describes the amendment process. "The loophole is that Article V's procedures can be applied to Article V itself. It can therefore be altered in a "downward" direction, making it easier to alter the article again in the future. So even if, as is now the case, amending the Constitution is difficult to bring about, once Article V is downwardly amended, the next attempt to do so will be easier, and the one after that easier still.

Other writers have speculated that Gödel may have had other aspects of the Constitution in mind as well, including the abuse of gerrymandering, the Electoral College, and the presidential pardon."[SUP][6]

[The above] has been called "one of the great unsolved problems of constitutional law" by F. E. Guerra-Pujol.[SUP][1][/SUP]
[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_Loophole


*not going to type out "Oppenheimer" each time

Far fetched and barely interesting.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

There have been a lot of articles about how trump would become a dictator if re-elected. Most people think it's highly unlikely this could happen in the US.

In the Oppenheimer bio, American Prometheus, Oppy* is sponsoring a foreign colleague, Kurt Gödel, for US citizenship. Gödel is a brilliant mathematician from the Czech Republic. While he's studying for the naturalization test under Oppy's tutelage, he asserts that there's an inner contradiction in our Constitution that could legally turn American democracy into a dictatorship. My question is, can this be proven?

The speculation is that there's a problem involving Article V that describes the amendment process. "The loophole is that Article V's procedures can be applied to Article V itself. It can therefore be altered in a "downward" direction, making it easier to alter the article again in the future. So even if, as is now the case, amending the Constitution is difficult to bring about, once Article V is downwardly amended, the next attempt to do so will be easier, and the one after that easier still.

Other writers have speculated that Gödel may have had other aspects of the Constitution in mind as well, including the abuse of gerrymandering, the Electoral College, and the presidential pardon."[SUP][6]

[The above] has been called "one of the great unsolved problems of constitutional law" by F. E. Guerra-Pujol.[SUP][1][/SUP]
[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_Loophole


*not going to type out "Oppenheimer" each time

There is a slight problem with that opinion.
It assumes that small population states would be willing to give up their outsized power to block amendments by allowing amendments to be passed based on population or that large states would be willing to give up their ability to block amendments by setting a standard of fewer states.
Two examples -
Small red states would not give large blue states more power to repeal the second amendment.
Large blue states would not give small red states the power to pass an amendment to ban abortion.

Then by reducing the requirements to amend the Constitution, you only create anarchy. If 1/3 of the states is all that is needed to pass an amendment we would be in a constant state of passing and repealing amendments.

 

[christiefan915]

There is a slight problem with that opinion.
It assumes that small population states would be willing to give up their outsized power to block amendments by allowing amendments to be passed based on population or that large states would be willing to give up their ability to block amendments by setting a standard of fewer states.
Two examples -
Small red states would not give large blue states more power to repeal the second amendment.
Large blue states would not give small red states the power to pass an amendment to ban abortion.

Then by reducing the requirements to amend the Constitution, you only create anarchy. If 1/3 of the states is all that is needed to pass an amendment we would be in a constant state of passing and repealing amendments.

Thanks for the good response. It's one explanation on whether or not this could work, and how it could be done. I'm doubtful but wanted to hear some other opinions.

 

[Nordberg]

Government has never cared about the constitution, it does what it wants. Covid lockdowns and mandatory jabs are the latest examples.

Nothing to do with the Constitution. Promoting the general welfare is in the preamble.
The founders made a mistake. They thought a president would be a gentleman and act for the best of America. Trump is way outside that mold. It was impossible to write for every single probability in 1775 and predict the future. They did their best, but there are ways to ooze out od doing the right thing for the nation. Trump looked hard and found them.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I would say for a proof you'd have to demonstrate that there was a way for a single person to be appointed as not just head of the federal government with omnipotent power but having power over the states likewise.

I would also say that the way Article V reads, whatever this means might be, it becomes exponentially more difficult to obtain as the number of states goes up. The reason for this is the ratification means Article V requires. That is two-thirds of both houses of Congress have to approve the amendment, then two-thirds of the states have to ratify it.

Right now, there are 100 members in the Senate. Adding just one more state adds 2% more members. That ups the number of needed votes by 1 while you've added 2 members, a 50% ratio. I would say, based on just the current 50 states, it is damn near impossible that the Constitution can be amended at all at this point.

That means the only viable paths to a dictatorship in the US are general revolution by the public against the sitting government or the sitting government ignores the law as written and installs one themselves. That would require one-party rule, control of the government bureaucracy, and by-in from the military's leadership. So, the most likely path to a dictatorship is the Left--where something like 98% of dictatorships arise--puts like-minded individuals into every corner of the government, then the military, and rigs elections to get one-party rule. Electing a president alone wouldn't be sufficient. You'd need the broader part of government backing the tossing of the Constitution and rule of law to do it.
Even then, it's likely to result in a general revolution with the military and law enforcement disintegrating into political factions.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

What does this have to do with Trump?

Trumpians would be motivated to weaken the Constitution but using the strategy mentioned in the OP.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I would say for a proof you'd have to demonstrate that there was a way for a single person to be appointed as not just head of the federal government with omnipotent power but having power over the states likewise....

Not a single person but a single movement. Trump is a fucking moron. He never created or invented anything. His talent is salesmanship and dredging up the worst in human beings. In his case, white nationalism, white supremacy and Christian nationalism all united under one banner called the Party of Trump.

Do you really wonder why he likes Mein Kampf so much? It's a blueprint. Same goes for his admiration of other dictators like Putin, Kim, Xi, etc.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

There have been a lot of articles about how trump would become a dictator if re-elected. Most people think it's highly unlikely this could happen in the US.

In the Oppenheimer bio, American Prometheus, Oppy* is sponsoring a foreign colleague, Kurt Gödel, for US citizenship. Gödel is a brilliant mathematician from the Czech Republic. While he's studying for the naturalization test under Oppy's tutelage, he asserts that there's an inner contradiction in our Constitution that could legally turn American democracy into a dictatorship. My question is, can this be proven?

The speculation is that there's a problem involving Article V that describes the amendment process. "The loophole is that Article V's procedures can be applied to Article V itself. It can therefore be altered in a "downward" direction, making it easier to alter the article again in the future. So even if, as is now the case, amending the Constitution is difficult to bring about, once Article V is downwardly amended, the next attempt to do so will be easier, and the one after that easier still.

Other writers have speculated that Gödel may have had other aspects of the Constitution in mind as well, including the abuse of gerrymandering, the Electoral College, and the presidential pardon."[SUP][6]

[The above] has been called "one of the great unsolved problems of constitutional law" by F. E. Guerra-Pujol.[SUP][1][/SUP]
[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_Loophole


*not going to type out "Oppenheimer" each time

Gerrymandering and Presidential pardons are already abused. I'm not sure about the EC.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Not a single person but a single movement. Trump is a fucking moron. He never created or invented anything. His talent is salesmanship and dredging up the worst in human beings. In his case, white nationalism, white supremacy and Christian nationalism all united under one banner called the Party of Trump.

Do you really wonder why he likes Mein Kampf so much? It's a blueprint. Same goes for his admiration of other dictators like Putin, Kim, Xi, etc.

I seriously doubt Trump understands Mein Kampf, like you, assuming you've ever even bothered to read it.

What's the central theme of Mein Kampf, do you even know?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I seriously doubt Trump understands Mein Kampf, like you, assuming you've ever even bothered to read it.

What's the central theme of Mein Kampf, do you even know?

Thanks for agreeing Trump is a fucking moron, but I doubt he's so stupid he can't understand Mein Kampf.


Adolf's struggle to make Germany great again. Specifically, to make it Aryan and eradicate the Leftist scum and Jews. You know, just like you and your little Alt-Right friends want to do in America, Terry.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Government has never cared about the constitution, it does what it wants. Covid lockdowns and mandatory jabs are the latest examples.

I don't think much of the constitution myself,
covid lockdowns were clearly necessary,
and I have no problem with euthanizing ALL the unvaccinated.

We don't need walking petri dishes of disease in our midst.

But our government was created by that deficient constitution,
so it's absurd to say that government doesn't care about it.

Our government is fucked up specifically because it must follow the constitution mandates.

 

[goat]

I don't think much of the constitution myself,
covid lockdowns were clearly necessary,
and I have no problem with euthanizing ALL the unvaccinated.

We don't need walking petri dishes of disease in our midst.

But our government was created by that deficient constitution,
so it's absurd to say that government doesn't care about it.

Our government is fucked up specifically because it must follow the constitution mandates.

If you weren't such a lovable old man, I would quash your stupidity, but my time is better spent reminding you of the Sons of Liberty and Boston Tea Party. I'll eventually make you into a Patriot.