How do you define the state? Does *it* actually exist?

ironhead

ironhead

anarcho-capitalist
I would assert that the state is simply a monopoly on the use of force in a given geographic area. Moreover, there is no no such *thing* as the state - it is simply an agglomeration of individuals wielding power in a geographic area; those who control the use of force in said area.

If you think that the state exists as an entity (similar to the concept of "society"), then consider it like this: show my a picture of your family. Now, could you show me a picture of your family without any individual people?
 
you must have some really good shrooms. of course the state exists. once again your comparisons are horrible. show me a picture of your thoughts. can't do it, but that doesn't mean your thoughts don't exist. same with the state. the state is an idea and to claim ideas don't exist is absurd. further, the state is a legal entity.
 
Yurt said:
you must have some really good shrooms. of course the state exists. once again your comparisons are horrible. show me a picture of your thoughts. can't do it, but that doesn't mean your thoughts don't exist. same with the state. the state is an idea and to claim ideas don't exist is absurd. further, the state is a legal entity.
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You can at least find the person who has the thoughts; their brain is potentially observable. The state is fictitious. It can't tell you about itself, unlike the individual who can explain his/her thoughts. Can you show me a picture of the government without any individuals? Care to offer your definition of the state?
 
SmarterthanYou said:
the state 'exists' because we created it via the constitutions of the several states.
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I didn't realize you were present when your state's constitution was formed as well as when the Federal constitution was written? I know that I was not there and did not give my consent. I certainly don't consent to many, many things the US government does, such as waging wars and violating property rights.
 
ironhead said:
I didn't realize you were present when your state's constitution was formed as well as when the Federal constitution was written? I know that I was not there and did not give my consent. I certainly don't consent to many, many things the US government does, such as waging wars and violating property rights.
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the phrase 'we the people' encompasses the people of the united states, therefore 'you'. Now, if you wish to extricate yourself from that group, you are certainly free to renounce your citizenship. As to not consenting to things the US Government does that are outside of their power given to them in the constitution, join the club. I don't consent to 95% of the things the government does because it's outside the scope of their assigned powers. Since we happen to be in the minority and the majority of the sheeple ignore or approve of the government gaining consent of those in disagreement by threatening them with death, we have three choices. submit, rebel, or go off the grid.

Now, you can easily find which group you belong to by determining what party you vote for
 
ironhead said:
You can at least find the person who has the thoughts; their brain is potentially observable. The state is fictitious. It can't tell you about itself, unlike the individual who can explain his/her thoughts. Can you show me a picture of the government without any individuals? Care to offer your definition of the state?
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i can observe your thoughts by looking at your brain? do you have secret technology i don't know about?

the state - sure: depending on the state, we'll use the US as our example though....the constitution for both federal and state governments. further, the elected people we elect to run the government.

here is a picture of the potus

220px-Official_portrait_of_Barack_Obama.jpg
 
LOL. "Does it exist"...

Does your family exist? What do you define it as?

While fun, it has little or no value in the actual life of any person whatsoever. The "state" is the accepted entity made up of individuals selected, in our nation specifically, to represent the citizens of our society with specific empowerment defined in our founding documents. To that end we grant government listed powers so that they can act in our interest.
 
ironhead said:
You can at least find the person who has the thoughts; their brain is potentially observable. The state is fictitious. It can't tell you about itself, unlike the individual who can explain his/her thoughts. Can you show me a picture of the government without any individuals? Care to offer your definition of the state?
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I work for a large corporation. Does it exist? It cannot describe itself either. It, like the state, may have a spokeperson that can tell you, but the corporation can't.

I am a member of a methodist church. It cannot tell you about itself either. So it is fictitious?



A group can be formed and make agreements. This allows some to focus on one task while other focus on other tasks.
 
WinterBorn said:
I work for a large corporation. Does it exist? It cannot describe itself either. It, like the state, may have a spokeperson that can tell you, but the corporation can't.

I am a member of a methodist church. It cannot tell you about itself either. So it is fictitious?



A group can be formed and make agreements. This allows some to focus on one task while other focus on other tasks.
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i know exactly what you're saying....but i think his reasoning is - none of the underlying entities which give reality to the entities, actually exist. iow....the corp doesn't exist, because the state doesn't exist...don't what he would say about a religious group.
 
Yurt said:
you must have some really good shrooms. of course the state exists. once again your comparisons are horrible. show me a picture of your thoughts. can't do it, but that doesn't mean your thoughts don't exist. same with the state. the state is an idea and to claim ideas don't exist is absurd. further, the state is a legal entity.
Click to expand...

Hold on, you are agreeing with him, that the state is merely a "state of mind," and doesn't tangibly exist. You see, this is the problem I have with fence-sitters, you want to entertain these fools by accepting their premises at face value and trying to argue from there. You've already conceded his point, the state doesn't "really" exist. What you have to do instead, is REJECT his silliness that the state doesn't exist, by showing the state's charter and legal foundations of authority and jurisdiction. The state most certainly does exist, in principle AND physically! Try not paying state taxes or property tax, and see what happens next?
 
ironhead said:
I would assert that the state is simply a monopoly on the use of force in a given geographic area. Moreover, there is no no such *thing* as the state - it is simply an agglomeration of individuals wielding power in a geographic area; those who control the use of force in said area.

If you think that the state exists as an entity (similar to the concept of "society"), then consider it like this: show my a picture of your family. Now, could you show me a picture of your family without any individual people?
Click to expand...

To paraphrase:
That would depend on what the definition of "it" is! :)
 
ironhead said:
I didn't realize you were present when your state's constitution was formed as well as when the Federal constitution was written? I know that I was not there and did not give my consent. I certainly don't consent to many, many things the US government does, such as waging wars and violating property rights.
Click to expand...

By living here, you automatically give consent to live by the agreements reached by those that came before you.
You also have the right to either try to change those situations or leave and live elsewhere.
 
Dixie said:
Hold on, you are agreeing with him, that the state is merely a "state of mind," and doesn't tangibly exist. You see, this is the problem I have with fence-sitters, you want to entertain these fools by accepting their premises at face value and trying to argue from there. You've already conceded his point, the state doesn't "really" exist. What you have to do instead, is REJECT his silliness that the state doesn't exist, by showing the state's charter and legal foundations of authority and jurisdiction. The state most certainly does exist, in principle AND physically! Try not paying state taxes or property tax, and see what happens next?
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dixie...what gives the state authority to exist?
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
By living here, you automatically give consent to live by the agreements reached by those that came before you.
You also have the right to either try to change those situations or leave and live elsewhere.
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Why does someone's "consent" removed several generations from me, not even my ancestors (not that it would change much in this equation), have any authority over me? Do we bear responsibility for crimes committed by people in the past?
 
ironhead said:
Why does someone's "consent" removed several generations from me, not even my ancestors (not that it would change much in this equation), have any authority over me? Do we bear responsibility for crimes committed by people in the past?
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Because you make the choice to live here and therefore choose to live by what they have enacted.
Your second sentence is just a strawman defense.
 
ironhead said:
Why does someone's "consent" removed several generations from me, not even my ancestors (not that it would change much in this equation), have any authority over me? Do we bear responsibility for crimes committed by people in the past?
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You were born into a society and are bound by the laws of that society. If you can change those laws, so be it. But to reap the rewards of living within that society, and then claim you are immune from the laws of it is the height of hypocrisy.
 
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