How liberal policies are actually anti-poor, not anti-poverty

ironhead

anarcho-capitalist
The Liberal Assault on the Poor

by Jacob G. Hornberger

Liberals say that they love the poor, needy, and disadvantaged. Unfortunately, however, the economic philosophy that liberals favor constitutes a direct assault on the economic well-being of the poor, along with nearly everyone else in society.

Liberals claim to combat poverty in two principal ways.

First, they use the force of government (e.g., income taxes) to take money from those who have earned it in order to give it to the poor.

Second, they restrict people’s use of their property to enable the poor to have access to such property.

What liberals fail to understand, however, is that the very means they choose to combat poverty – socialism and interventionism – actually exacerbate the problem that they claim to address. Their war on poverty hurts the very people they say they are trying to assist.

In proposing welfare-state programs, by necessity liberals always make an important assumption. They assume that there is wealth in society. After all, if there is no wealth then what good would welfare-state policies do? The welfare state operates on the assumption that there are people who are earning wealth or have accumulated wealth. Those are the people from whom the government takes money in order to redistribute it to the poor.

Let’s consider a hypothetical case based on science fiction. Astronomers discover that an inhabitable planet is hurtling toward our solar system and will soon join the other planets in orbit around the sun. Faced with overcrowding of its prisons, the federal government decides to exile 50,000 prisoners on a spaceship to the planet. Everyone is given six months of supplies on which to survive – food, water, and clothing – and nothing else.

When the prisoners arrive on the planet, they call into existence a federal government, democratically elected. Federal officials are empowered to do everything and anything they can to combat the extreme poverty that is immediately facing society.

Liberals are elected to the presidency and to Congress. They propose a massive welfare-state program modeled on Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal and Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society. Social Security. Medicare and Medicaid. Public housing. Food stamps. Grants to education. Agricultural subsidies. Unemployment relief.

Do you see the problem? The federal government isn’t a fountain of wealth. It has no money. Its coffers are empty. In order to get the money to distribute all these welfare benefits to people, it must first impose a tax on people.

But do you see the next problem? There are no wealthy or even middle-class people who can be taxed because everyone in this society is poor.

In proposing their array of welfare programs to help the poor, liberals operate under the mindless assumption that wealth exists naturally in a society. Even worse, they give nary a thought to the possibility that a society in which wealth is growing is the greatest benefit to the poor. Worst of all, they don’t consider the distinct possibility that their own tax-and-redistribute policies tend toward destroying the base of wealth in society, thereby relegating everyone to poverty.

Read the rest of the article at:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger181.html
 
Ironhead, I don't think you are going to get very far by arguing that in a poor society welfare programs don't make sense. We aren't a poor society.

liberals operate under the mindless assumption that wealth exists naturally in a society.

Au contraire, it is only in the context of a wealthy society that a welfare program makes sense, as your example amply demonstrates.
 
The system this author advocates has NEVER exsisted on the face of the earth under man. Man is incapable of maintaining any type of unfettered free market. Some one ends up with all the marbles when there are no rules. Thats how we got kings.
 
The Liberal Assault on the Poor

by Jacob G. Hornberger

Liberals say that they love the poor, needy, and disadvantaged. Unfortunately, however, the economic philosophy that liberals favor constitutes a direct assault on the economic well-being of the poor, along with nearly everyone else in society.

Liberals claim to combat poverty in two principal ways.

First, they use the force of government (e.g., income taxes) to take money from those who have earned it in order to give it to the poor.

Second, they restrict people’s use of their property to enable the poor to have access to such property.

What liberals fail to understand, however, is that the very means they choose to combat poverty – socialism and interventionism – actually exacerbate the problem that they claim to address. Their war on poverty hurts the very people they say they are trying to assist.

In proposing welfare-state programs, by necessity liberals always make an important assumption. They assume that there is wealth in society. After all, if there is no wealth then what good would welfare-state policies do? The welfare state operates on the assumption that there are people who are earning wealth or have accumulated wealth. Those are the people from whom the government takes money in order to redistribute it to the poor.

Let’s consider a hypothetical case based on science fiction. Astronomers discover that an inhabitable planet is hurtling toward our solar system and will soon join the other planets in orbit around the sun. Faced with overcrowding of its prisons, the federal government decides to exile 50,000 prisoners on a spaceship to the planet. Everyone is given six months of supplies on which to survive – food, water, and clothing – and nothing else.

When the prisoners arrive on the planet, they call into existence a federal government, democratically elected. Federal officials are empowered to do everything and anything they can to combat the extreme poverty that is immediately facing society.

Liberals are elected to the presidency and to Congress. They propose a massive welfare-state program modeled on Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal and Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society. Social Security. Medicare and Medicaid. Public housing. Food stamps. Grants to education. Agricultural subsidies. Unemployment relief.

Do you see the problem? The federal government isn’t a fountain of wealth. It has no money. Its coffers are empty. In order to get the money to distribute all these welfare benefits to people, it must first impose a tax on people.

But do you see the next problem? There are no wealthy or even middle-class people who can be taxed because everyone in this society is poor.

In proposing their array of welfare programs to help the poor, liberals operate under the mindless assumption that wealth exists naturally in a society. Even worse, they give nary a thought to the possibility that a society in which wealth is growing is the greatest benefit to the poor. Worst of all, they don’t consider the distinct possibility that their own tax-and-redistribute policies tend toward destroying the base of wealth in society, thereby relegating everyone to poverty.

Read the rest of the article at:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger181.html
You Fox News addicts gotta be living in la la land. You're still stuck in the 70's that because someone actually believes in freedom and liberty and practices them that they are a social welfare state liberal. That shit went out with Disco. Get over it and catch up with the times.
 
The system this author advocates has NEVER exsisted on the face of the earth under man. Man is incapable of maintaining any type of unfettered free market. Some one ends up with all the marbles when there are no rules. Thats how we got kings.
Yea how quickly these fools forget. Didn't we just have a good example of the negative consequences of deregulation and of how regulators being asleep at the wheel can have catastrophic consequences. Have they completely forgotten about Lehman brothers?

Naaa, there more interested in believing the propaganda that anyone who doesn't walk in lock step with their beliefs is an advocate of the socialist welfare state. It's so old and predictable that it's hard not to laugh at them, isn't it?

The real contradiction of the authors article is that our economy has, in the last century, performed significantly better under liberal administrations then it has under conservatives, as has been pointed out in a number of other threads. Why is that?

The truth is, is that these conservatives who are accusing those who don't agree with them of being bottom feeding socialist really want a system that protects the monied class. They want to go back to the good old bad days of unregulated monopolies and trust. They want the system to be dominated by a handful of vastly wealth individuals who can literally control the rest of us as a slave market. The last thing these conservatives want is a fair and competitive market place. Either in market place of business or the market place of ideas. They want it all and they want you to go eat cake.

The truth is, as you've pointed out Desh, these conservatives are living in a lala land of never has been laizes-faire monopoly capitalism. Well we've all seen in our history where this kind of greed and corruption gets us and most of us who actually practice freedom instead of just talking about it understand the importance of fairness in the market place and the importance of a well regulated economy and business sector in order to protect this fairness and our fair access to the economic resources of our nation. We know how important this freedom of fair access is to the prosperity of all in this nation. It is this freedom to fair access of our economic resources that these conservatives oppose and this is why our economy prospers and more people advance their quality of life under liberal administrations then conservatives.

Cause the truth is, conservatives don't want anyone to prosper but themselves and the last thing they want is for us to have a free and fair access to the market place of business and ideas. They would rather us be their economic slaves.
 
You Fox News addicts gotta be living in la la land. You're still stuck in the 70's that because someone actually believes in freedom and liberty and practices them that they are a social welfare state liberal. That shit went out with Disco. Get over it and catch up with the times.

LOL, is it just a natural reflex the minute you read something you don't like to throw out Fox News? Is it a code warning to others who think like yourself?

Lew Rockwell is a libertarian organization, it is not Fox News. While conservatives do share some/many libertarian economic beliefs there are still major differences thus they are not the same groups. It helps to at least understand who you are putting down before you attempt to do so.
 
The system this author advocates has NEVER exsisted on the face of the earth under man. Man is incapable of maintaining any type of unfettered free market. Some one ends up with all the marbles when there are no rules. Thats how we got kings.

This old post of mine addresses your ignorance directly:

Your post reinforces another aspect of the liberal mind that I have long held: it has no understanding of modern economics. Its like your were educated during medieval times when wealth was tied into precious metals. The Spaniards traveled the world seeking and pillaging gold and thus became wealthy at the expense of others. Since there was only so much gold in the world, only very few could be wealthy, and many were poor.

In modern times however (like the last 300 years or more) wealth is tied into many things, and precious metals are near the bottom of the wealth development scale. Agriculture trumps gold: the annual cotton crop of California is worth more than all the gold ever mined there. Intellectual property trumps it all: Bill Gates (Microsoft) is one of the wealthiest men in America and J. K. Rowling (Harry Potter Series) rose from poverty to have more money that the Queen of England. There is lots of unused farmland in the world, and basically no limit to the human imagination, therefore there is no practical limit to the production of wealth.

Liberals think that wealth production is a zero sum game, that if I make a dollar someone else loses one. The fact is that if I design, say, a wood structure its owner pays me. He then pays a contractor who pays a suppler who pays a manufacturer who pays a logger. The owner ends up with a house that's what he wanted and is worth exactly what he paid for it, and in fact is likely to be worth more in growing economy. So in this scenario wealth was created by my intellectual thought, the contractor's management skills, the suppliers capital investments, the manufacturer's skills, and the logger's labor. No one lost and everyone gained.
 
You Fox News addicts gotta be living in la la land. You're still stuck in the 70's that because someone actually believes in freedom and liberty and practices them that they are a social welfare state liberal. That shit went out with Disco. Get over it and catch up with the times.

I don't watch Fox News; I'm not a conservative. Nice strawman, though.
 
This entire thesis of this article is that liberals necessarily say that wealth naturally exists in society. NO WE DON'T. I probably understand economics much better than most conservatives. The foundation of the article obviously incorrect, and the rest of it depends upon it's incorrect premise, therefore, what the rest of the article says is pretty much irrelevant.
 
LOL, is it just a natural reflex the minute you read something you don't like to throw out Fox News? Is it a code warning to others who think like yourself?

Lew Rockwell is a libertarian organization, it is not Fox News. While conservatives do share some/many libertarian economic beliefs there are still major differences thus they are not the same groups. It helps to at least understand who you are putting down before you attempt to do so.
Don't give me that crap Wacko. I've been hearing this complete and utter nonsense, these silly mythological stereotypes, for years coming out of the right wing media. If Mr. Rockwell wants to spew this nonsense and call himself a Libertarian that's his problem. I aint buying it.
 
I don't watch Fox News; I'm not a conservative. Nice strawman, though.
My ass it's a strawman and you may not consider your self a conservative but these are the same lame stereotypes coming out of the right wing media that I've heard for many years now that dismiss anyone who disagrees with their "laizzes-faire" approach economics as a social welfare state liberal. It's complete and total nonsense and, as I pointed out in my next post, is largely contradicted by the fact that the economy usually prospers to a greater degree for more people under liberal administration then under conservative, why is that?
 
This entire thesis of this article is that liberals necessarily say that wealth naturally exists in society. NO WE DON'T. I probably understand economics much better than most conservatives. The foundation of the article obviously incorrect, and the rest of it depends upon it's incorrect premise, therefore, what the rest of the article says is pretty much irrelevant.
You are exactly right Watermark. Mr. Hornberger's entire argument is based on this false premise. It's both dismissive and it's wrong. The vast majority of liberals in this nation believe in capitalism and a free market economy. It's conservatives and libertarians who oppose free market capitalism because they don't want the regulations required to keep our economy open with fair access to all. What they want is monopoly capitalism which excludes us so they can do what they damned well please.
 
Unfortunately, I put more credibility in empirical evidence which is backed up by data and validation actually found in the real world, over libertarian message board theories and the conjectures, untested hypotheses, guesswork and speculations of Lew Rockwell.com and their merry band of Rontard message board theorizers.

So, I’ll provide a list of prosperous, stable, relatively egalitarian, and successful nations that are based in very large measure on the implementation and premise of a New Deal-Great Society-or European welfare state, with relatively strong social safety nets, and substantial public investments in education, retirement security, and unemployment security…..

And can you please provide me your list of prosperous, stable, and relatively egalitarian nations that follow the premise of the Austrian/Chicago Boys School of Economics with regard to massive deregulation, no public social safety net, and where unfettered free markets and private charity have created this libertarian nirvana that you often speak of?


Your List
?????

My List
Denmark
United States
Canada
France
Sweden
Norway
Germany
Finland
Australia
Netherlands
Belgium
Switzerland
Canada
Italy
Austria
New Zealand
United Kingdom
Ireland
Iceland
Spain
 
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