How we didn't win the war . . . but the Russians did

cancel2 2022

Canceled


I can't recall the number of times that I've heard on here and elsewhere that the Americans won the second world war, this incredibly thoughtful article from the Times begs to say otherwise.

Britain and America still insist they defeated the Nazis, in the face of overwhelming evidence that they were minor partners, says Norman Davies (Source)

“History will be kind to me,” predicted Winston Churchill, “because I intend to write it.” And so it proved. Churchill’s The Second World War, which began to appear in 1948, largely set the agenda for all subsequent presentations of the war years, especially in western countries: Britain stands in the centre of the conflict and her survival paves the way for victory.

As Churchill has it, Britain’s enemies, the axis powers, provide the sole authors of aggression, of criminal conduct and of undefined “evil”. The tide turns at El Alamein. Britain’s principal allies, the US and the USSR, which Churchill brought together in the grand coalition, provide the twin sources of military muscle that hunt down the fascist beast.

In Europe the allies of east and west co-operate, overcome their differences and triumph. The spectacular landings of the western armies in Normandy match the huge “Russian” successes on the eastern front. The Reich is crushed. Freedom and democracy prevail and “Europe is liberated”.

Unfortunately, the truth is more complex. The Russians, for example, are clear that the Red Army played the dominant role in the defeat of the Reich, demoting the Anglo-American war effort to secondary or tertiary importance. What is more, like the Americans, they insist that the “real war” began in 1941, relegating the events of 1939-41 to a mere prelude. For their part the Americans are most conscious of the competing demands of the two theatres of action in Europe and in the Pacific. They also emphasise the importance of the US as “the arsenal of democracy”.

Any attempt to revise established views provokes resistance, although I must admit to being surprised at the vehement opposition I encountered when challenging the Churchillian version. Other historians, such as Richard Overy, Robert Conquest and Anne Applebaum, have been peeling away the layers of myth for the past four decades, but still many people are unwilling to judge events on their own merit for fear of being accused of supporting “the forces of evil”.

Others recoil with incredulity from the notion that our patriotic opinions about 1939-45 may constitute something less than the whole truth. Both the British and the American public have long been told that “we won the war” and D-Day, in particular, has been built up as the decisive moment. The American D-Day Museum has been adopted as the national tribute to the war and Steven Spielberg, the director of Saving Private Ryan and co-producer of Flags of Our Fathers, which is just about to open, seems to have made it a mission to perpetuate Churchill’s myth.

After talking at Cambridge recently about the preponderance of the eastern front and the scale of the Red Army’s triumph, I was accosted by an angry young British historian. “Don’t you realise that we were pinning down 56 German divisions in France alone,” he said. “Without that the Red Army would have been heavily defeated.” What is less acknowledged is that without the Red Army pulverising 150 divisions, the allies would never have landed.

The attack on the Third Reich was a joint effort. But it was not a joint effort of two equal parts. The lion’s share of victory in Europe can be awarded only to Stalin’s forces and it is a fantasy to believe that he was fighting for justice and democracy.

Separating the facts from the myths and the propaganda is not easy. One of the trickiest problems in establishing a credible narrative of the war arises from the misconception that the largest combatant state, the USSR, stayed neutral before the German attack of June 1941. Soviet accounts have always preferred to focus on the so-called Great Fatherland War, and carefully avoids close examination of Stalin’s political and military machinations in the preceding years.

Western commentators have usually followed this line, reluctant to publicise their embarrassment at Hitler’s initial partner becoming the ally of the democratic West.

In reality, in the first 22 months of fighting when the Wehrmacht attacked and occupied eight countries, the Red Army attacked and occupied five. These manifest aggressions make nonsense of any claims of neutrality or of defensive responses to the provocations of others. In November 1939, for example, Stalin’s unprovoked invasion of Finland resulted in a war that lasted for twice as long as any of Hitler’s early campaigns.

Similarly, the Soviet annexation of the Baltic states in 1940 was no mere “strengthening of the defences” or “readjustment of frontiers”. It was a brutal act of depredation that destroyed three sovereign European states, together with a quarter of their population. All these events were facilitated by the Nazi-Soviet pact, which gave Stalin the same licence for banditry in the Soviet sphere that Hitler was exploiting in the German.

Proportions, however, are crucial. Since 75%-80% of all German losses were inflicted on the eastern front it follows that the efforts of the western allies accounted for only 20%-25%. Furthermore, since the British Army deployed no more than 28 divisions as compared with the American army’s 99, the British contribution to victory must have been in the region of 5%-6%. Britons who imagine that “we won the war” need to think again.

The modest size of the American contingent also calls for reflection. The population of the US was more than twice that of Germany and not far short of the Soviet Union’s. The military potential of the US, as estimated in 1939 in terms of gross national product and industrial production, represented more than 40% of the world’s total. Yet these advantages were never translated into proportionate superiority on the battlefield. The 100 divisions that General George C Marshall and his staff set as their target for mobilisation were overshadowed 2.5:1 by German divisions and 3-4:1 by the Red Army’s divisions.

Of course, crude numbers do not explain everything. The western powers were strong in some departments, notably in naval and air forces, and less strong in others. American industrial output was one of the marvels of the war; and all members of the allied coalition, including the Soviet Union, benefited greatly from it.

Nonetheless, the Third Reich was not brought to its knees by bombers and blockades. Both the German military and the German civilian population proved remarkably resilient. Hitler’s continental fortress had to be reduced inch by inch by soldiers on the ground. And here the Red Army excelled. So much may be reluctantly conceded by western analysts who can do their sums. Harder to accept is that Soviet military prowess went hand in hand with criminality. The Third Reich was largely defeated not by the forces of liberal democracy, but by the forces of another mass-murdering tyranny. The liberators of Auschwitz were servants of a regime that ran a much larger network of concentration camps of its own.

When Churchill was writing in the late 1940s, he knew perfectly well that Stalin was no angel. Yet the sheer scale and variety of Stalinist crimes was not known. The statistic of 27m Soviet “war losses”, which appeared in the 1960s, concealed the fact that many of them were not Russians and many were victims not of Hitler but of Stalin. It has taken the collapse of the Soviet Union and more than 60 years for this body of certainty to accumulate.

One can argue about the similarities and differences of the Holocaust and the Gulag and it is obviously a mistake to equate the two. On the other hand, it is also a mistake to pretend that Stalinist crimes can somehow be absolved because Stalin was a doughty champion of the anti-Nazi cause.
All of which makes the Churchillian model open to revision. Britain can no longer stand centre stage. The axis powers are joined on the criminal list by the Soviet Union, which also turns out to have been the principal victor. The western allies are not all-conquering heroes but did well to finish in the winners’ enclosure.

The Americans arrived too late and in too few numbers to play the dominant role. The forces of democracy played their part in the defeat of fascism, but were left controlling less than half the continent. In the greater part of Europe one totalitarian tyranny was replaced by another. More often than not, the rhetoric of “freedom” and “liberation” was misplaced.
 
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Looks like everybody is in agreement then, I will just wheel this article out the next time some dozy Yank says for the umpteenth time that they won the war.
 
The Allies won the War. However, are you implying that America's help wasnt needed and the 1/2 a million American Deaths was an unnecessary contribution?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/how_the_allies_won_01.shtml

It's all there in the article, the Russians did most of the heavy lifting. It is unpalatable for many to hear but nonetheless true. They also pinned down many Japanese divisions in Manchuria who would have been deployed elsewhere. By the way, as a percentage of population there were three times as many British deaths as compared to the US. The article is just trying to set the record straight and debunk some of the myths that has arisen over the years.
 
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It's all there in the article, the Russians did most of the heavy lifting. It is unpalatable for many to hear but nonetheless true. They also pinned down many Japanese divisions in Manchuria who would have been deployed elsewhere. By the way, as a percentage of population there were three times as many British deaths as compared to the US. The article is just trying to set the record straight and debunk some of the myths that has arisen over the years.
Much of the Russian defense and offense would not be possible without American supplies, and British forces keeping the north atlantic clear.

Like I said, we all won.
 
I don't think you chaps will find many Americans who will not state unequivically that the Germans made two of their most colassal mistakes prior to US entry, in the failed Battle of Britain and the Winter Invasion of Russia. Both sentiments indicate major victories on the part of Britain and the USSRrrrrr!!!
 
I don't think you chaps will find many Americans who will not state unequivically that the Germans made two of their most colassal mistakes prior to US entry, in the failed Battle of Britain and the Winter Invasion of Russia. Both sentiments indicate major victories on the part of Britain and the USSRrrrrr!!!

There have been any number of ignorant yanks, on here and elsewhere, who have stated that they won the war and if it wasn't for them then we would be all speaking German.
 
There have been any number of ignorant yanks, on here and elsewhere, who have stated that they won the war and if it wasn't for them then we would be all speaking German.

Yeah, but you also see people on here saying Obama is a kenyan muslim, that 9/11 was an inside job, and that Dick Cheney is honest.
 
Russia lost over 20 million. Get a grip. Stalin wanted England to land in Europe to take pressure off of the eastern front but after the disasters of Norway and Dunkirk in 1940 the Brits had learned that overwhelming force was the only way to beachhead. Brits needed the U.S. to help clear Africa while Stalin was screaming for a second front in Europe. The Russian people bore the brunt of the war for a couple of years. By the time the Allies landed in France in 44 the Russians were on the offensive after the battle of Stalingrad. Which IMO was the turning point of the war. If the Russians had lost this battle in 42-43 the war would have been a lot different.

The Russians bled a lot more than the other allies. The U.S. did its part militarily but more importantly out produced everybody else and without the American war material things might be different. There are a lot of IF's in wwII.

If we have to pick just one country to say won the war I pick the Russians.
 
Russia lost over 20 million. Get a grip. Stalin wanted England to land in Europe to take pressure off of the eastern front but after the disasters of Norway and Dunkirk in 1940 the Brits had learned that overwhelming force was the only way to beachhead. Brits needed the U.S. to help clear Africa while Stalin was screaming for a second front in Europe. The Russian people bore the brunt of the war for a couple of years. By the time the Allies landed in France in 44 the Russians were on the offensive after the battle of Stalingrad. Which IMO was the turning point of the war. If the Russians had lost this battle in 42-43 the war would have been a lot different.

The Russians bled a lot more than the other allies. The U.S. did its part militarily but more importantly out produced everybody else and without the American war material things might be different. There are a lot of IF's in wwII.

If we have to pick just one country to say won the war I pick the Russians.

It's refreshing to hear from someone who is objective and informed about WW2.
 
Russia lost over 20 million. Get a grip. Stalin wanted England to land in Europe to take pressure off of the eastern front but after the disasters of Norway and Dunkirk in 1940 the Brits had learned that overwhelming force was the only way to beachhead. Brits needed the U.S. to help clear Africa while Stalin was screaming for a second front in Europe. The Russian people bore the brunt of the war for a couple of years. By the time the Allies landed in France in 44 the Russians were on the offensive after the battle of Stalingrad. Which IMO was the turning point of the war. If the Russians had lost this battle in 42-43 the war would have been a lot different.

The Russians bled a lot more than the other allies. The U.S. did its part militarily but more importantly out produced everybody else and without the American war material things might be different. There are a lot of IF's in wwII.

If we have to pick just one country to say won the war I pick the Russians.

The Norway campaign wasn't exactly the disaster that is often portrayed by history. Although Allied action did not achieve its objective in stopping the transport of iron ore to Germany, or in recapturing Norway, the German losses suffered during the action at sea ultimately resulted in there being too few ships for the proposed invasion of England.

It's a relatively little known fact that without Sweden, a supposedly neutral country, Germany would have been desperately short of iron ore to feed its war industries.
 
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It's refreshing to hear from someone who is objective and informed about WW2.

I've always liked history especially military history.

Gotta give the Brits some credit though... They survived on their island, kept their navy together, defended the middle east and were the first to do this..

"The naval Battle of Taranto took place on the night of 11–12 November 1940 during World War II. The Royal Navy launched the first all-aircraft naval attack, ship-to-ship in history, flying a small number of torpedo bombers from an aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean Sea to attack the Italian Navy's battle fleet at anchor at the harbor of Taranto, utilizing aerial torpedoes, in spite of the shallowness of the harbor. The devastation wreaked by the British carrier-launched aircraft on the large Italian warships was the beginning of the rise of the power of naval aviation, over the big guns of battleships."
Battle of Taranto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Tarantoharb1921.jpg" class="image"><img alt="Tarantoharb1921.jpg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Tarantoharb1921.jpg/300px-Tarantoharb1921.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/5/59/Tarantoharb1921.jpg/300px-Tarantoharb1921.jpg

Sneaky bastards.
 
I've always liked history especially military history.

Gotta give the Brits some credit though... They survived on their island, kept their navy together, defended the middle east and were the first to do this..

"The naval Battle of Taranto took place on the night of 11–12 November 1940 during World War II. The Royal Navy launched the first all-aircraft naval attack, ship-to-ship in history, flying a small number of torpedo bombers from an aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean Sea to attack the Italian Navy's battle fleet at anchor at the harbor of Taranto, utilizing aerial torpedoes, in spite of the shallowness of the harbor. The devastation wreaked by the British carrier-launched aircraft on the large Italian warships was the beginning of the rise of the power of naval aviation, over the big guns of battleships."
Battle of Taranto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sneaky bastards.

The Japanese copied the idea for the attack on Pearl Harbour a year later.
 
typical. if you have nothing constructive or find your point of view destroyed you come back with idiotic insults. We've seen this from the brainwashed 'conservatives' here for years. Hey, I like Green Day and agree with their song, there are a lot of stupid people in America...

Don't want to be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information age of hysteria.
It's calling out to idiot America.

The song is about how corporate controlled Faux 'News' is creating fear and paranoia in America. They're saying your an idiot if you believe this hysteria.

Without America and Russia you Brits would be speaking German.

Get your teeth fixed Austin.
 
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