Is the Immigration Bill a Union-Buster?

Cypress

Well-known member
I know the default positions on both the left and right. The right wants migrant workers for cheap labor (and to undermine unions and worker rights, of course). The left doesn’t necessarily want millions of undocumented people streaming over the border, but if they’ve been here working, paying taxes, and obeying the law, there is a humanitarian argument for cutting them some slack.

I’ve been thinking about this immigration bill the senate passed. I’m not familiar with all the details. I understand that it does have provisions for a guest worker program, and allowing illegal immigrants to pay a fine and get in line for a process that ultimately makes them legal. And something about increasing a guest worker program too, I think.

There's no doubt that certain, discrete sectors of the american economy may well need foreign documented guest workers. I've worked in the fields of california's agricultural heartland (when I was a "starving" student). And I'm telling you, even if they paid twelve dollars an hour, you wouldn't get enough americans to do that back-breaking work. It is pure hell, as far as manual labor goes.

But, honestly, as much as I think comprehensive immigration reform is the only pragmatic solution possible (we’re not going to be able to deport 12 million people), I have a sneaking suspicion this bill is a Trojan horse. A sneak attack on unions. And let’s face it: Unions are one of the last, and strongest bastions of economic justice and progressivism remaining. Since the Reagan years, there has been a concerted assault by the right, to kneecap them (assisted by some Democratic enablers). As much of a bleeding heart as I am, I can’t help but feel that (possibly) this legislation is ultimately destined (intentionally or unintentionally) to flood the labor markets with cheap labor, and weaken unions.

I have no confidence that the federal government (especially under republican executive control) is going to do anything substantive about employer sanctions and enforcements against hiring illegals. Analogy: It’s like giving Bush authority to use military force on Iraq, based on his promises that he will only use it if ABSOLUTELY necessary. Bush may well see this legislation as a gift horse. Of course he will do big businesses bidding and provide them cheap, legal labor. But, will he follow through on the enforcement aspects of the bill, and aggressively sanction business that hire cheap, illegal labor? I find it laughable to conclude that he will. If I had any confidence that the federal government would truly enforce employer sanctions, I wouldn’t be so worried about the prospect of robber barons and republicans in some smokey back room, giggling about the prospect of weakening unions and flooding the market with cheap labor - while only paying lip service to enforcing workers rights, wage laws, and undocumented workers.

In short, I see a republican president taking advantage of the aspects of this bill that are weighted towards improving the bottom line overhead costs for business -- but totally ignoring the parts that allegedly protect workers rights, wages, and unions.

But, that’s just my stream of consciousness for today: I’m open to learning about this legislation further and changing my mind.
 
this will gut unions!!!
dems get votes, cons get cheap labor.
This bill is fucked in many ways, hope some asswhole cons blocks it.
We're going to put American kids in jail for pot, something the AMA recommends for pain, and nausia but roll out the welcome mat for criminal illegal alians.
Fuck no!!!
Priorites:pke:
 
Let me be clear topper: I don't consider an american kid who smokes a joint to be a felon.

Nor, do I consider an undocument migrant worker who comes here bascially at the invitation of american businesses to be a felon either. We (government and business) basically invite these people over here to work, with a wink and a nod.


I'm saying it's complicated. I certainly think it's an issue that has many aspects. Should we control our borders, and be able to regulate, document, how many guest workers come into the country? And should we regulate that, in consideration of national interests, worker interests, and economic interests? Yes. I don't have all the answers on how to do that.
 
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Let me be clear topper: I don't consider an american kid who smokes a joint to be a felon.

Nor, do I consider an undocument migrant worker who comes here bascially at the invitation of american businesses to be a felon either. We (government and business) basically invite these people over here to work, with a wink and a nod.


I'm saying it's complicated. I certainly think it's an issue that has many aspects. Should we control our borders, and be able to regulate, document, how many guest workers come into the country? And should we regulate that, in consideration of national interests, worker interests, and economic interests? Yes. I don't have all the answers on how to do that.


Enforce and control our border. Why is that hard for you? Are you stupid?
 
I think that Cypress raises some really important points - especially his comment that the question of migration does not lend itself to simple solutions.

Here in Ireland we have gone from a position of mass-emigration up to the 1980's when our economy was tanking to a position for the first time in the modern era to large numbers of people choosing Ireland to migrate to. Most of that immigration has been of Irish people returning to Ireland or their children and grand-children. Much of the rest is from the European Union, especially Poland and Lithuania. A relatively small proportion of immigration is from outside of the EU. We now have a situation where some 10% of our population was born ouside of the State, a situation unparalelled in Irish history.

This change has occured over a very short period of time, about 10 or so years, and has led to tensions and a rise (although quite small in comparison to other countries) in xenophobic feeling. One of the crucial issues is that which Cypress identifies, i.e. the effect on the Labour market and wages and working conditions.

The response in Ireland has been two-fold. Fiurstly, the Trade Unions have launched very successful recruitment drives amongst migrant workers, especially those in sectors most vulnerable to exploitation. This has had the effect of extending solidarity and support to migrant workers while mitigating the worst effects of unscrupulous employers who pay below the minimum wage or who operate unsafe and unhealthy working environments.

In addition, the government has beefed up the Labour Inspectorate in order to police Laboru standards legislation amongst those employers that unions cannot or have not yet reached.

The effect has been that while there have been instances of existing workers being replaced by lower-cost migrant workers the impact of this has been relatively low. We havem, however, gained considerably form the additional economic activity that large numbers of migrant workers generate themselves. Indeed a large part of the success of the Irish economy can be put down to the additional consumers and labour resources that migrants have brought to our economy.

So in short my advice is that strong, open and recruiting Trade Unions and a strong Labour Inspectorate enforcing fair labour standards and wages are an essential part of leveraging the economic benefits of migration while minimising the impact that this pool of new labour has on existing wages and conditions.
 
I think that Cypress raises some really important points - especially his comment that the question of migration does not lend itself to simple solutions.

Here in Ireland we have gone from a position of mass-emigration up to the 1980's when our economy was tanking to a position for the first time in the modern era to large numbers of people choosing Ireland to migrate to. Most of that immigration has been of Irish people returning to Ireland or their children and grand-children. Much of the rest is from the European Union, especially Poland and Lithuania. A relatively small proportion of immigration is from outside of the EU. We now have a situation where some 10% of our population was born ouside of the State, a situation unparalelled in Irish history.

This change has occured over a very short period of time, about 10 or so years, and has led to tensions and a rise (although quite small in comparison to other countries) in xenophobic feeling. One of the crucial issues is that which Cypress identifies, i.e. the effect on the Labour market and wages and working conditions.

The response in Ireland has been two-fold. Fiurstly, the Trade Unions have launched very successful recruitment drives amongst migrant workers, especially those in sectors most vulnerable to exploitation. This has had the effect of extending solidarity and support to migrant workers while mitigating the worst effects of unscrupulous employers who pay below the minimum wage or who operate unsafe and unhealthy working environments.

In addition, the government has beefed up the Labour Inspectorate in order to police Laboru standards legislation amongst those employers that unions cannot or have not yet reached.

The effect has been that while there have been instances of existing workers being replaced by lower-cost migrant workers the impact of this has been relatively low. We havem, however, gained considerably form the additional economic activity that large numbers of migrant workers generate themselves. Indeed a large part of the success of the Irish economy can be put down to the additional consumers and labour resources that migrants have brought to our economy.

So in short my advice is that strong, open and recruiting Trade Unions and a strong Labour Inspectorate enforcing fair labour standards and wages are an essential part of leveraging the economic benefits of migration while minimising the impact that this pool of new labour has on existing wages and conditions.


In the states, impacting wages is the WHOLE POINT of encouraging immigration. Our unions are weak from year "free marketeer" propaganda being drummed into our heads by noahide think tanks.
 
In the states, impacting wages is the WHOLE POINT of encouraging immigration. Our unions are weak from year "free marketeer" propaganda being drummed into our heads by noahide think tanks.

Thanks for your response AHZ.

Perhaps then, part of the response to the question of migration should be linking it to the reform of labour legislation and stronger Trade Union organisation. Making immigrants (actual and potential) the object of sanctions, which from what little I know about the American debate appears to be the primary field of discussion, fails both migrants and existing communities and workers.

Incidentally, what does "noahide" mean?
 
Thanks for your response AHZ.

Perhaps then, part of the response to the question of migration should be linking it to the reform of labour legislation and stronger Trade Union organisation. Making immigrants (actual and potential) the object of sanctions, which from what little I know about the American debate appears to be the primary field of discussion, fails both migrants and existing communities and workers.

Incidentally, what does "noahide" mean?


Some of us have tried to make immigrants the object of sanction. We get called racists. We have cities here who openly defy federal law and declare themselves "Sanctuary cities".

According to the jewish talmud (oral tradition), the Hebraic Patriarchs were orally given laws that were to be enforced on all men of the world, even non-jews. It's basically a plan for global theocracy, spearheaded by god's chosen people. I'm against all forms of theocracy, so I discuss the issue, though I am called an anti-semite for doing so. For some reason the Jewish faith is perceived here as some kind of all inclusive religion of the future. What's all inclusive is the plan for subjugation of the planet under jewish hegemony. Do a google on noahide, it's a great wealth of information. Noahides are non-jews who believe that jews are god's chosen people, and will serve them faithfully. It's a mindset of second-classdom. And the american evangelicals get hard nipples over it.
 
I'm afraid you and I have very different perspectives on the world, AHZ.

PES, get him to tell you about the reptilian/mammal hybrids that actually rule our planet!

They are vampiric in nature. They have to suck the life force out of humans or their reptilian DNA will take over and their appearance will change to that of a reptile.

Its some of his best stuff.
 
PES, get him to tell you about the reptilian/mammal hybrids that actually rule our planet!

They are vampiric in nature. They have to suck the life force out of humans or their reptilian DNA will take over and their appearance will change to that of a reptile.

Its some of his best stuff.
I prefer Thor's hollow earth and faeries.
 
PES, get him to tell you about the reptilian/mammal hybrids that actually rule our planet!

They are vampiric in nature. They have to suck the life force out of humans or their reptilian DNA will take over and their appearance will change to that of a reptile.

Its some of his best stuff.

Really all that alien stuff is fun and games. Real actual intentions to control the world through various means are not, and these are observable, verified and ongoing.
 
Really all that alien stuff is fun and games. Real actual intentions to control the world through various means are not, and these are observable, verified and ongoing.

OH, so now you are saying that your posts about the reptilian hybrids was all in fun?

Lmao, okey dokey.
 
OH, so now you are saying that your posts about the reptilian hybrids was all in fun?

Lmao, okey dokey.

To a degree, though I have some belief in aliens. Do you think a weather balloon crashed at roswell and that our government has nothing to conceal information about aliens? Did you see that astronaut who came forward just the other day about the coverup? You probably dont care. It's too outside your small little world.
 
Thanks for your advice everyone. I appear to have wandered into a minefield - I'll retrace my steps ... carefully.

The topic was about immigration legislation and its impact on the living standards of working people. I'll stick to that subject if I may.
 
Thanks for your advice everyone. I appear to have wandered into a minefield - I'll retrace my steps ... carefully.

The topic was about immigration legislation and its impact on the living standards of working people. I'll stick to that subject if I may.


Working people are getting screwed. If you're not interested in who's doing it and the distorted ideations they use to accomplish it, you are no help.
 
The only way to stop illegal immigration is to put those who hire them in jail. Fences, raids, and spending tons of $ will not work. It's easier to find a few thousand employers than it is to find 12 million illegals. When illegals come here and cant find work they will go back to Mexico. IMO this is the easiest and cheapest way to solve the problem.
 
The only way to stop illegal immigration is to put those who hire them in jail. Fences, raids, and spending tons of $ will not work. It's easier to find a few thousand employers than it is to find 12 million illegals. When illegals come here and cant find work they will go back to Mexico. IMO this is the easiest and cheapest way to solve the problem.

I disagree. Fences, machine gun turrets, mine fields, tanks, biochem, whatever it takes. It's not IMPOSSIBLE as the NAU zealots claim.
 
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