let us abolish marriage as a contract with the state

Don Quixote

cancer survivor
Contributor
let us make all joining of adults a civil ceremony whereby the joining is a contract between the people being joined and the state

let 'marriage' become a function of religious and philosophical institutions

anyone may have both or one

instead of a marriage license, have a joining license
 
I have always advocated civil unions, as opposed to marriage. As far as the state government is concerned, it should be a civil contract between two legal aged adults, and not restricted in any other way. If a daughter and mother want a civil union, they can do so, and the tax benefits of a current 'married couple' could be realized between them. The same with insurance beneficiaries, hospital and medical decisions, and even adoption. Where we currently allow 'married couples' to do something, we would allow civil union partners to do it instead.

This serves several purposes. It removes both the 'sexuality' aspect from state sanction, and it removes any and all 'religious' aspect as well. It allows religious institutions to maintain sanctity of traditional marriage, and it also allows 'gay couples' the opportunity to obtain the benefits they desire. As an added bonus, it helps many struggling families who have to cope with an aging parent, or siblings who depend on each other to survive, as they could 'combine assets' and benefit with taxes and such.

I have presented this idea here on this board before, and it seemed to be soundly rejected by the "gay marriage advocates" for some reason. My assumption, based on their comments, was the fact it wouldn't allow them to adequately trash religion and religious customs. Furthermore, I think the left doesn't really want to settle the issue, because it's like racism, abortion, and entitlements, it delivers a certain 'enraged' segment of voters each election cycle. Having the issue benefits them more than solving the issue.
 
I would go further and say that the "joining license" should require periodic renewals like all other liscences.
 
.....

I have presented this idea here on this board before, and it seemed to be soundly rejected by the "gay marriage advocates" for some reason. My assumption, based on their comments, was the fact it wouldn't allow them to adequately trash religion and religious customs. Furthermore, I think the left doesn't really want to settle the issue, because it's like racism, abortion, and entitlements, it delivers a certain 'enraged' segment of voters each election cycle. Having the issue benefits them more than solving the issue.
You've hit the nail right on the head with this one. Conservatives need to use the same tactic.
 
let us make all joining of adults a civil ceremony whereby the joining is a contract between the people being joined and the state

let 'marriage' become a function of religious and philosophical institutions

anyone may have both or one

instead of a marriage license, have a joining license

Agreed, get the government out of the Religen part.
 
I have always advocated civil unions, as opposed to marriage. As far as the state government is concerned, it should be a civil contract between two legal aged adults, and not restricted in any other way. If a daughter and mother want a civil union, they can do so, and the tax benefits of a current 'married couple' could be realized between them. The same with insurance beneficiaries, hospital and medical decisions, and even adoption. Where we currently allow 'married couples' to do something, we would allow civil union partners to do it instead.

This serves several purposes. It removes both the 'sexuality' aspect from state sanction, and it removes any and all 'religious' aspect as well. It allows religious institutions to maintain sanctity of traditional marriage, and it also allows 'gay couples' the opportunity to obtain the benefits they desire. As an added bonus, it helps many struggling families who have to cope with an aging parent, or siblings who depend on each other to survive, as they could 'combine assets' and benefit with taxes and such.

I have presented this idea here on this board before, and it seemed to be soundly rejected by the "gay marriage advocates" for some reason. My assumption, based on their comments, was the fact it wouldn't allow them to adequately trash religion and religious customs. Furthermore, I think the left doesn't really want to settle the issue, because it's like racism, abortion, and entitlements, it delivers a certain 'enraged' segment of voters each election cycle. Having the issue benefits them more than solving the issue.


There are plenty of churches that reconise Gay Marriage, and thus gay people would be just as able to get married, as long as they choose the right church.
 
There are plenty of churches that reconise Gay Marriage, and thus gay people would be just as able to get married, as long as they choose the right church.

I take it you think I am opposed to gays having a wedding? As I have said before, I attended a gay wedding in 1987.. in ALABAMA! There has never been a law to prohibit any peaceful ceremony, as far as I know. My only point of contention with "gay marriage" is allowing the state to sanction something based on sexual behavior. I think it sets a dangerous precedent. You, supposedly being a lawyer, should be aware of what a dangerous precedent this would be. Furthermore, I don't think the government should adopt law that violates the 'free exercise' of religion, and adopting "gay marriage" would certainly do so. Legalize it, and a few years later, churches would be sued for discrimination and stripped of tax exempt status for refusing to perform "gay marriage" ceremonies. It opens a whole can of worms that don't need to be opened, and the issue can be resolved otherwise.

I have no problem with gay people having a wedding, if they so desire. I have no problem with gay couples obtaining the same benefits as traditional married couples. I know you find it hard to believe, but I think a lot of people on the right, share my view. I just oppose the government officially sanctioning marriage based on sexual behavior. It shouldn't be the business of government in the case of gay people OR straight people.
 
I take it you think I am opposed to gays having a wedding? As I have said before, I attended a gay wedding in 1987.. in ALABAMA! There has never been a law to prohibit any peaceful ceremony, as far as I know. My only point of contention with "gay marriage" is allowing the state to sanction something based on sexual behavior. I think it sets a dangerous precedent. You, supposedly being a lawyer, should be aware of what a dangerous precedent this would be. Furthermore, I don't think the government should adopt law that violates the 'free exercise' of religion, and adopting "gay marriage" would certainly do so. Legalize it, and a few years later, churches would be sued for discrimination and stripped of tax exempt status for refusing to perform "gay marriage" ceremonies. It opens a whole can of worms that don't need to be opened, and the issue can be resolved otherwise.

I have no problem with gay people having a wedding, if they so desire. I have no problem with gay couples obtaining the same benefits as traditional married couples. I know you find it hard to believe, but I think a lot of people on the right, share my view. I just oppose the government officially sanctioning marriage based on sexual behavior. It shouldn't be the business of government in the case of gay people OR straight people.


How in the world would allowing gay people to get legally married violate any ones free exersize of religen, in fact, it would only allow more people to exersice there religen freely.
 
How in the world would allowing gay people to get legally married violate any ones free exersize of religen, in fact, it would only allow more people to exersice there religen freely.

Because most religions do not condone homosexuality. Marriage, to them, is a sacred institution... that's what "sanctity of marriage" means. To have the state officially recognize and endorse homosexual marriage, is an affront to the religious customs and practices of the church, thereby, prohibiting their free exercise of what they believe. It would be like the state adopting an official position that crosses are "hate symbols" and prohibiting them from being displayed in public. Or officially saying that any book can be called "The Holy Bible."

As I have said, and Don Q agreed, there is a way to remedy this issue for people who want to have "gay marriage" and also preserve the integrity of religious sanctity regarding traditional marriage. Why are YOU opposed?
 
Because most religions do not condone homosexuality. Marriage, to them, is a sacred institution... that's what "sanctity of marriage" means. To have the state officially recognize and endorse homosexual marriage, is an affront to the religious customs and practices of the church, thereby, prohibiting their free exercise of what they believe. It would be like the state adopting an official position that crosses are "hate symbols" and prohibiting them from being displayed in public. Or officially saying that any book can be called "The Holy Bible."

As I have said, and Don Q agreed, there is a way to remedy this issue for people who want to have "gay marriage" and also preserve the integrity of religious sanctity regarding traditional marriage. Why are YOU opposed?


I agree with you about the way this issue should be handled, but you are CRAZY to say that allowing gay marriage would prohibit the free exersize of religen... CRAZY. It would be like claiming that because Eating Pork is an affront to many Jewish people, the governemtn should not allow eating pork to be legal, because that would be condoning it and that would prohibit the free exersize of religen.

I believe the logic portion of your brain is liquified.
 
I agree with you about the way this issue should be handled, but you are CRAZY to say that allowing gay marriage would prohibit the free exersize of religen... CRAZY. It would be like claiming that because Eating Pork is an affront to many Jewish people, the governemtn should not allow eating pork to be legal, because that would be condoning it and that would prohibit the free exersize of religen.

I believe the logic portion of your brain is liquified.

No, it would be like saying that all Kosher food must also include pork.

I am glad we agree on the solution.
 
No, it would be like saying that all Kosher food must also include pork.

I am glad we agree on the solution.

No that would be akin to saying all married people must marry people of the same sex. Noone is saying that all marriages must contain members of the same sex...!
 
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=38567563846

Every individual has the right to pursue happiness. This includes the right to form a stable, long-term pair bond with another consenting adult, and establish a household.

The marriage ceremony is a spiritual joining ritual that celebrates such a bond. Some faiths have other names for this ritual, and people of no faith use it by default. But all have one thing in common: they celebrate something that the State has no power over... Love.

Marriage licensing, on the other hand, has never been about love. It has always been about controlling property. The modern marriage license grants power to the state in over 1100 different ways to control your property. They are sold to you as "rights"... but they are more aptly described as "intrusions".

The last thing I want to do to somebody I love, is expose them to the enforcement branch of this psychopathic government. They already screw with straight people AND their kids, why would gay people want it too? Together, we should ALL be telling the government, we don't need your stinking permission, and we don't want it.

Equal in Freedom, not Equal in Chains!!
Abolish the Marriage License, NOW!!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=38567563846
 
I have always advocated civil unions, as opposed to marriage. As far as the state government is concerned, it should be a civil contract between two legal aged adults, and not restricted in any other way. If a daughter and mother want a civil union, they can do so, and the tax benefits of a current 'married couple' could be realized between them. The same with insurance beneficiaries, hospital and medical decisions, and even adoption. Where we currently allow 'married couples' to do something, we would allow civil union partners to do it instead.

This serves several purposes. It removes both the 'sexuality' aspect from state sanction, and it removes any and all 'religious' aspect as well. It allows religious institutions to maintain sanctity of traditional marriage, and it also allows 'gay couples' the opportunity to obtain the benefits they desire. As an added bonus, it helps many struggling families who have to cope with an aging parent, or siblings who depend on each other to survive, as they could 'combine assets' and benefit with taxes and such.

I have presented this idea here on this board before, and it seemed to be soundly rejected by the "gay marriage advocates" for some reason. My assumption, based on their comments, was the fact it wouldn't allow them to adequately trash religion and religious customs. Furthermore, I think the left doesn't really want to settle the issue, because it's like racism, abortion, and entitlements, it delivers a certain 'enraged' segment of voters each election cycle. Having the issue benefits them more than solving the issue.

I am completely supportive of this stance. Keep the church out of the civil union business and keep the state out of the marriage business.
 
I am completely supportive of this stance. Keep the church out of the civil union business and keep the state out of the marriage business.

You seem to not understand the definition of the word 'marriage'....

It has nothing to do with churches, religions, governments, or states...

Its simply a word with a MEANING in the English language....a definition that has existed for thousands of years...a definition that is called by other words throughout the world.
Using any of those words doesn't change the meaning .....
-----
the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments...
------

Is this a bit over your head ?

Words have meanings....didn't you post that very phrase countless times....

There are MEN and there are WOMEN....those words have definite meanings...you can call a women a man but that doesn't make it correct....
 
You seem to not understand the definition of the word 'marriage'....

It has nothing to do with churches, religions, governments, or states...

Its simply a word with a MEANING in the English language....a definition that has existed for thousands of years...a definition that is called by other words throughout the world.
Using any of those words doesn't change the meaning .....
-----
the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments...
------

Is this a bit over your head ?

Words have meanings....didn't you post that very phrase countless times....

There are MEN and there are WOMEN....those words have definite meanings...you can call a women a man but that doesn't make it correct....

the term marriage does not belong solely to the english language. the word is found in almost every language on earth. marriage has been around for at least 6 thousand years as you rightly state.

that does not mean that marriage has nothing to do with religion, governments or states. who do you think created "marriage"? marriage is not owned by christians, jews, muslims, hindus, atheists....it is a term to signify a committment between two people. and traditionally that has been SOLELY man and woman.

then the state/government got involved and called marriage a contract. that ended the presumption that "marriage" is solely between a man and a woman.
 
You seem to not understand the definition of the word 'marriage'....

It has nothing to do with churches, religions, governments, or states...

Its simply a word with a MEANING in the English language....a definition that has existed for thousands of years...a definition that is called by other words throughout the world.
Using any of those words doesn't change the meaning .....
-----
the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments...
------

Is this a bit over your head ?

Words have meanings....didn't you post that very phrase countless times....

There are MEN and there are WOMEN....those words have definite meanings...you can call a women a man but that doesn't make it correct....

It doesn't matter what the definitions are, or how any individual perceives the definitions, or at least it shouldn't, as far as government is concerned. Civil Unions would alleviate the problem of varying interpretations of what "marriage" is or what it means to the individual. It would remove this issue from the table, and allow it to be 'defined' according to the individual. Churches and religious groups, could maintain "sanctity of marriage" from a religious standpoint, and gay couples could view their union as a "marriage" in a secular or even a 'non-secular' (Unitarian) sense. We need not agree upon a standard definition of marriage to solve this problem, that is my point.

I agree with your definition of marriage, I believe it is a holy union between a man and a woman, and nothing else constitutes "marriage" in my opinion. That said, we don't live in a kingdom where I am the king and I get to decide what the rest of you have to accept. I am part of a society, with differing viewpoints, and as a part of this society, I have to respect the views of others whenever I can. This is a case where I can. I oppose "redefining" marriage to endorse or sanction it from a governmental level, based on sexual behavior... I simply refuse to advocate that! I've given my reasons for this, and it has nothing to do with my personal views about homosexuals. I also denounce the attempts of some to lobby government to pass laws which basically trash religious traditions. There is no need for that. The problem can be remedied without trashing and bashing religious customs, and without infringing on the 'rights' of homosexuals. It's called Civil Unions!
 
It doesn't matter what the definitions are, or how any individual perceives the definitions, or at least it shouldn't, as far as government is concerned. Civil Unions would alleviate the problem of varying interpretations of what "marriage" is or what it means to the individual. It would remove this issue from the table, and allow it to be 'defined' according to the individual. Churches and religious groups, could maintain "sanctity of marriage" from a religious standpoint, and gay couples could view their union as a "marriage" in a secular or even a 'non-secular' (Unitarian) sense. We need not agree upon a standard definition of marriage to solve this problem, that is my point.

I agree with your definition of marriage, I believe it is a holy union between a man and a woman, and nothing else constitutes "marriage" in my opinion. That said, we don't live in a kingdom where I am the king and I get to decide what the rest of you have to accept. I am part of a society, with differing viewpoints, and as a part of this society, I have to respect the views of others whenever I can. This is a case where I can. I oppose "redefining" marriage to endorse or sanction it from a governmental level, based on sexual behavior... I simply refuse to advocate that! I've given my reasons for this, and it has nothing to do with my personal views about homosexuals. I also denounce the attempts of some to lobby government to pass laws which basically trash religious traditions. There is no need for that. The problem can be remedied without trashing and bashing religious customs, and without infringing on the 'rights' of homosexuals. It's called Civil Unions!

I could not have said it better myself. I agree with absolutely every word of that post... and for those who have followed the maineman/dixie battles over the last six years or so, this is a revelation.
 
It doesn't matter what the definitions are, or how any individual perceives the definitions, or at least it shouldn't, as far as government is concerned. Civil Unions would alleviate the problem of varying interpretations of what "marriage" is or what it means to the individual. It would remove this issue from the table, and allow it to be 'defined' according to the individual.

But it does matter what the definition is...thats the point....you can't pick up a rock and call it 'marriage' just because it suits your fancy.....words have meanings....
Individuals can't just define words at their whim ....
Its like calling that gender bender women that became pregnant, a man....
the man that had a baby...what fuckin' nonsense....



Churches and religious groups, could maintain "sanctity of marriage" from a religious standpoint, and gay couples could view their union as a "marriage" in a secular or even a 'non-secular' (Unitarian) sense. We need not agree upon a standard definition of marriage to solve this problem, that is my point.

I agree with your definition of marriage, I believe it is a holy union between a man and a woman, and nothing else constitutes "marriage" in my opinion. That said, we don't live in a kingdom where I am the king and I get to decide what the rest of you have to accept. I am part of a society, with differing viewpoints, and as a part of this society, I have to respect the views of others whenever I can. This is a case where I can. I oppose "redefining" marriage to endorse or sanction it from a governmental level, based on sexual behavior... I simply refuse to advocate that! I've given my reasons for this, and it has nothing to do with my personal views about homosexuals. I also denounce the attempts of some to lobby government to pass laws which basically trash religious traditions. There is no need for that. The problem can be remedied without trashing and bashing religious customs, and without infringing on the 'rights' of homosexuals. It's called Civil Unions!

I'm sure the social agreement between a man and women that we now call marriage, existed long before any religion or "government"........
 
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