Marxism before Marx

C

Cypress

Well-known member
Utopia: Thomas Moore's quasi-communistic 16th century literary vision --- A fusion between the ideals of Plato's Republic, Cicero's practical civic humanism, and the social justice radicalism of the New Testament. (Source: Professor Dale Hoak, College of William and Mary)

Apostolic Christian Church Fathers: private property is a consequence of original sin, and is not compatible with the ideal human condition, even if it is a practical neccessity in man's current sinful state.

Gospel of Luke - Acts - Epistles of the Apostle James: Christian social gospel, communal property, condemnation of the wealthy and of their oppression of the poor.
 
A Scriptural Understanding of Property

--- The Apostolic Church Fathers see private property, and therefore wealth and poverty, as a consequence of Original Sin ---

For as long as there has been history there has been private property; for as long as there has been private property there have been wealth and poverty. Natural law theory holds that in pre-history's Golden Age all possessions were held in common and that, in Martin Hengel's words, "the moral downfall of man began with the introduction of private property."[1] Metal working, agriculture, trade, and various crafts destroyed the paradisal condition by introducing "mine" and "thine."

On the other hand, the Christian perspective, amply attested in the writings of the Church Fathers, sees private property, and therefore wealth and poverty, as a consequence of the Fall and not its cause. The distinction is an important one, for perspective dictates the approach with which one solves the problem of wealth and poverty: philosophy sees the solution in the eradication of private property; Christianity in the restoration of communion with God. (Interestingly enough in both instances private property is viewed as an unnatural condition, a condition that provokes philosophy's romantic call for a return to nature and the Fathers' admonitions that possessions are the root of all dissension.) The Christian approach -- the restoration of communion with God -- suggests that what is to be condemned is not property itself but the misuse of property, which makes communion with God impossible.

The possibility, indeed probability, of misusing property means that, for a Christian, property represents, again in Hengel's words, both "a dangerous threat and a supreme obligation."

https://www.svots.edu/content/stewardship-and-new-testament
 
'Hunter-Gatherers' didn't 'posses' property, as in Land. The possession of Land came about with the Agricultural Revolution.
I find it funny how you try to prove everything good comes from 'Christianity'.

"What was the Neolithic Revolution?"
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/topics/reference/neolithic-agricultural-revolution/#close

"The Neolithic Revolution—also referred to as the Agricultural Revolution—is thought to have begun about 12,000 years ago. It coincided with the end of the last ice age and the beginning of the current geological epoch, the Holocene. And it forever changed how humans live, eat, and interact, paving the way for modern civilization."
 
Cypress said:
A Scriptural Understanding of Property

--- The Apostolic Church Fathers see private property, and therefore wealth and poverty, as a consequence of Original Sin ---

For as long as there has been history there has been private property; for as long as there has been private property there have been wealth and poverty. Natural law theory holds that in pre-history's Golden Age all possessions were held in common and that, in Martin Hengel's words, "the moral downfall of man began with the introduction of private property."[1] Metal working, agriculture, trade, and various crafts destroyed the paradisal condition by introducing "mine" and "thine."

On the other hand, the Christian perspective, amply attested in the writings of the Church Fathers, sees private property, and therefore wealth and poverty, as a consequence of the Fall and not its cause. The distinction is an important one, for perspective dictates the approach with which one solves the problem of wealth and poverty: philosophy sees the solution in the eradication of private property; Christianity in the restoration of communion with God. (Interestingly enough in both instances private property is viewed as an unnatural condition, a condition that provokes philosophy's romantic call for a return to nature and the Fathers' admonitions that possessions are the root of all dissension.) The Christian approach -- the restoration of communion with God -- suggests that what is to be condemned is not property itself but the misuse of property, which makes communion with God impossible.

The possibility, indeed probability, of misusing property means that, for a Christian, property represents, again in Hengel's words, both "a dangerous threat and a supreme obligation."

https://www.svots.edu/content/stewardship-and-new-testament
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"Sir Thomas More wrote Utopia in 1516. The work was written in Latin and it was published in Louvain (present-day Belgium). Utopia is a work of satire, indirectly criticizing Europe's political corruption and religious hypocrisy. More was a Catholic Humanist. Alongside his close friend, the philosopher and writer Erasmus, More saw Humanism as a way to combine faith and reason. In depicting Utopia, More steps outside the bounds of orthodox Catholicism, but More's ultimate goal is to indicate areas of improvement for Christian society. Is an ideal state possible? Utopia means "no place" but sounds like "good place." At the very least, Utopia exposes the absurdities and evils of More's society by depicting an alternative."
https://www.gradesaver.com/utopia/

--->"religious hypocrisy".
 
'Humanism'

"In modern times, humanist movements are typically non-religious movements aligned with secularism, and today humanism may refer to a nontheistic life stance centred on human agency and looking to science rather than revelation from a supernatural source to understand the world.[3][4]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
 
"Thomas More
Sir Thomas More, venerated in the Catholic Church as Saint Thomas More, was an English lawyer, social philosopher, author, statesman, and noted Renaissance humanist. He also served Henry VIII as Lord High Chancellor of England from October 1529 to May 1532.Wikipedia"

--->"Renaissance humanist".
 
Cypress said:
Utopia: Thomas Moore's quasi-communistic 16th century literary vision --- A fusion between the ideals of Plato's Republic, Cicero's practical civic humanism, and the social justice radicalism of the New Testament. (Source: Professor Dale Hoak, College of William and Mary)

Apostolic Christian Church Fathers: private property is a consequence of original sin, and is not compatible with the ideal human condition, even if it is a practical neccessity in man's current sinful state.

Gospel of Luke - Acts - Epistles of the Apostle James: Christian social gospel, communal property, condemnation of the wealthy and of their oppression of the poor.
Click to expand...



"Although the work is divided into two books, to this day most scholarship focuses on Book Two. In it, the fictional character More meets another fictional character named Raphael Hythloday, who was purportedly one of the original 24 voyagers traveling to the Americas with Amerigo Vespucci. Raphael claims to have separated from Vespucci’s entourage somewhere after reaching Brazil, traveling farther south and discovering an island named Utopia. As media and culture professor Stephan Duncomb puts it, “In this island everything that is Europe is not, or everything that is not in Europe is in Utopia.” There is freedom of religion, there is no private property, everyone has access to education, everyone has meaningful jobs, and women can take on leadership roles. In short, Utopia is Europe turned upside down."
https://hyperallergic.com/347275/why-we-still-need-thomas-mores-utopia-in-2016/

500 years ago, More had to be cautious how he worded things. He could have his head cut off by the State for Sedition. He could be burned at the stake by the Church for Blasphemy.
 
Jack said:
"Thomas More
Sir Thomas More, venerated in the Catholic Church as Saint Thomas More, was an English lawyer, social philosopher, author, statesman, and noted Renaissance humanist. He also served Henry VIII as Lord High Chancellor of England from October 1529 to May 1532.Wikipedia"

--->"Renaissance humanist".
Click to expand...
Righty-O., Thomas Moore and his contemporary Erasmus are widely recognized as history's most preeminent examples of Christian humanism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_humanism
 
Cypress said:
I did not write antecedent Marxism becasuse I was being lazy, and because 99.9% of Deplorables would not know what the word means.
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Or rather you didn't realize your mistake until a deplorable pointed it out for you.

You should go back to college because there is nothing worse then someone who errors when talking down to others.
 
Tinker said:
Or rather you didn't realize your mistake until a deplorable pointed it out for you.

You should go back to college because there is nothing worse then someone who errors when talking down to others.
Click to expand...
People generally do not find you smart and clear thinking, do they?

On a related tangent, I am going to push back the historical arc of Marxists before Marx to the Roman Republic of the first century BCE. Gaius and Tiberius Gracchus were Roman political reformers who tried to implement a program of land redistribution from wealthy landowners to the peasants, and to set up a system of social welfare for the poor.

If I am remembering my Roman history correctly, the Gracchus brothers played a role in the beginning of the end of the Republic.
 
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