National Recovery Administration

flaja

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Is anyone here familiar with the National Recovery Administration?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Recovery_Administration

Aside from the implications of ruling a republic by presidential decree (as happened to the Weimar Republic in 1933), this central plank of FDR’s New Deal was bound to fail because of the way it was designed. The inevitable result was bound to be collusion, price-fixing and monopoly- people are not going to regulate themselves for the benefit of others if self-regulation can be used for self-aggrandizement.

But is there any way that it could have worked if it had been designed differently?
 
Is anyone here familiar with the National Recovery Administration?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Recovery_Administration

Aside from the implications of ruling a republic by presidential decree (as happened to the Weimar Republic in 1933), this central plank of FDR’s New Deal was bound to fail because of the way it was designed. The inevitable result was bound to be collusion, price-fixing and monopoly- people are not going to regulate themselves for the benefit of others if self-regulation can be used for self-aggrandizement.

But is there any way that it could have worked if it had been designed differently?


No. It's central tenet is fucked.
 
Is anyone here familiar with the National Recovery Administration?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Recovery_Administration

Aside from the implications of ruling a republic by presidential decree (as happened to the Weimar Republic in 1933), this central plank of FDR’s New Deal was bound to fail because of the way it was designed. The inevitable result was bound to be collusion, price-fixing and monopoly- people are not going to regulate themselves for the benefit of others if self-regulation can be used for self-aggrandizement.

But is there any way that it could have worked if it had been designed differently?
And why should the implications of ruling a republic by presidential decree be an "aside"? That is the MAIN reason we should not try it again, no matter how it is designed.

As to design, the current levels of corruption in today's federal government should be a clear indication what will happen. Money will flow, above and below the table, and the decrees will favor where the money comes from. Period.
 
And why should the implications of ruling a republic by presidential decree be an "aside"?

Because I cannot discuss this issue without first pointing out the similarities between Hitler and FDR so as to illustrate my distaste for them.

For the sake of discussion I am willing to overlook the similarities between the New Deal and Nazi Germany. I don’t think the president’s power to impose codes of conduct on business and industry was central to the NRA’s purpose but FDR’s reliance on business and industry leaders to make the codes was central to the NRA’s failure. The NRA could have been implemented in ways that didn't give the president the power to make law or turn the code-making process over to the people who stood to gain the most by the codes. The alternative ways are what I want to discuss.
 
Iraq seems to be governing very little right now.

Or pick a Latin American country.

You rhetoric might please you but the reality would not.

That's why libertarians have guns- lots of them- and so little brains to know how to use them properly.
 
Because I cannot discuss this issue without first pointing out the similarities between Hitler and FDR so as to illustrate my distaste for them.

For the sake of discussion I am willing to overlook the similarities between the New Deal and Nazi Germany. I don’t think the president’s power to impose codes of conduct on business and industry was central to the NRA’s purpose but FDR’s reliance on business and industry leaders to make the codes was central to the NRA’s failure. The NRA could have been implemented in ways that didn't give the president the power to make law or turn the code-making process over to the people who stood to gain the most by the codes. The alternative ways are what I want to discuss.
But what are the alternatives? If we retain the law making process to the legislature, where it belongs, we end up with two major problems right out of the gate. First is the influence of corporate money in the halls of congress. We see them daily making law that benefits those whose money put them in power. Add onto this an agency with the authority of NRA would result in the same thing: having the code-making process in the hands of those who stand to benefit from them the most. Second is more applicable to today's political environment than 1930s, and that is the level of partisan bickering would turn any resulting agency into a back-biting, tail-chasing, ultimately useless and very expensive bureaucracy beholden to those who would very much like to make all the rules in commerce.

It is far better for government to take an entirely different approach than that represented by the NRA. The power to regulate interstate commerce is an immense power. So immense, that when wielded it, more often than not, leads to more problems than it solves. Like a sword that is too heavy for the knight apprentice, it tends to go around swinging wildly, chopping off things we never meant it to chop off.

A better use of the authority would be to wield it more gently, focusing only on those regulations that prevent big business from abusing their economic power, and quit trying to stimulate this, stimulate that. When the government tries to run the economy, instead of simply protecting the people from those who would abuse economic power, we end up with the very crap we see today, back in the early 80s, in the 40s (Had WWII not come along, who knows how deep that hole would have been dug?), etc. etc. etc. When government simply lets business do what business does (without allowing them to run roughshod over "the little guy") then things tend to go a lot better. Reagan had the right idea, but took cutbacks in regulation a bit too far. Clinton did a better job of balkancing hands off with protecting people from excesses, except he just could not resist the temptation to tax the expanding economy at higher levels, significantly hastening the post bubble decline.
 
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But what are the alternatives? If we retain the law making process to the legislature, where it belongs, we end up with two major problems right out of the gate. First is the influence of corporate money in the halls of congress. We see them daily making law that benefits those whose money put them in power. Add onto this an agency with the authority of NRA would result in the same thing: having the code-making process in the hands of those who stand to benefit from them the most. Second is more applicable to today's political environment than 1930s, and that is the level of partisan bickering would turn any resulting agency into a back-biting, tail-chasing, ultimately useless and very expensive bureaucracy beholden to those who would very much like to make all the rules in commerce.

The key would have been to design the code-making process with built-in checks and balances. I would have allowed business and industry owners to form chamber of commerce type organizations on the basis of common interests apart from just business and industry- geographic location, religion, politics etcetera. I would let the owners for each type of business and industry design codes for their business and industry but then the codes would have to have the approval of the entire group so the entire organization can be held in check; mutual accountability among people that do not share the exact same commercial interests would help insure the honesty of all of the members in the organization.

The NRA gave labor the right to unionize, but if your unemployment rate is in double digits and a strike is your only legal means of redress you really have no means of redress at all. So I would have given labor a say in making the codes as well, although I don’t know if labor should be represented based on job type or employer.

I would then let the entire organization set up a charity that would provide health insurance and unemployment, disability and retirement pensions for the people that work for the members of the organization. These benefits would be transferable between employers as long as a worker remains employed by members of the organization.

A better use of the authority would be to wield it more gently, focusing only on those regulations that prevent big business from abusing their economic power, and quit trying to stimulate this, stimulate that.

A long-term bad economy is bad for the nation. Social unrest is almost always bad for society and by not taking government action to stimulate the economy during a depression that depression could easily lead to revolution.

When the government tries to run the economy, instead of simply protecting the people from those who would abuse economic power, we end up with the very crap we see today

Then explain how Nazi Germany had a booming economy up until WWII even though the government ran the economy. I understand that the Nazis had a purpose in letting the government run the economy- rearmament and war- and this purpose created a false demand for industrial output that allowed an economic recovery that may not have otherwise happened. But it does show how a government-run economy can be a successful economy at least in the short term.

Reagan had the right idea, but took cutbacks in regulation a bit too far.

All Reagan did was deregulate and fail to enforce antitrust laws and the likes of Walmart and Home Depot and a destabilized banking and airline industry are the results. Reagan encouraged laissez-faire competition and the entire economy ultimately suffered.
 
The key would have been to design the code-making process with built-in checks and balances. I would have allowed business and industry owners to form chamber of commerce type organizations on the basis of common interests apart from just business and industry- geographic location, religion, politics etcetera. I would let the owners for each type of business and industry design codes for their business and industry but then the codes would have to have the approval of the entire group so the entire organization can be held in check; mutual accountability among people that do not share the exact same commercial interests would help insure the honesty of all of the members in the organization.

The NRA gave labor the right to unionize, but if your unemployment rate is in double digits and a strike is your only legal means of redress you really have no means of redress at all. So I would have given labor a say in making the codes as well, although I don’t know if labor should be represented based on job type or employer.

I would then let the entire organization set up a charity that would provide health insurance and unemployment, disability and retirement pensions for the people that work for the members of the organization. These benefits would be transferable between employers as long as a worker remains employed by members of the organization.



A long-term bad economy is bad for the nation. Social unrest is almost always bad for society and by not taking government action to stimulate the economy during a depression that depression could easily lead to revolution.



Then explain how Nazi Germany had a booming economy up until WWII even though the government ran the economy. I understand that the Nazis had a purpose in letting the government run the economy- rearmament and war- and this purpose created a false demand for industrial output that allowed an economic recovery that may not have otherwise happened. But it does show how a government-run economy can be a successful economy at least in the short term.



All Reagan did was deregulate and fail to enforce antitrust laws and the likes of Walmart and Home Depot and a destabilized banking and airline industry are the results. Reagan encouraged laissez-faire competition and the entire economy ultimately suffered.
Germany didn't have a "booming economy" up until WWII, their war build-up saved their economy much like it did for the US during WWII. Fascism was a temporary fix, it doesn't look good on us at all.
 
Germany didn't have a "booming economy" up until WWII,

Then explain how and why Germany had full employment by the time the Germans started World War II.

Germany’s unemployment rate was around 30% by the time the Nazis took over in January 1939. By the time the Germans started World War II, Germany had practically no unemployment.

Also, beginning in 1926 the highest year to year change in Germany’s GDP before the Great Depression began was a 10% increase in 1927. Germany’s GDP had a negative increase every year from 1929 to 1932, i.e., Germany’s economy got smaller. From 1933 to 1939 Germany’s GDP increased from year to year by more than 5% while 1937 and 1938 saw increases of over 10%.
 
Then explain how and why Germany had full employment by the time the Germans started World War II.

Germany’s unemployment rate was around 30% by the time the Nazis took over in January 1939. By the time the Germans started World War II, Germany had practically no unemployment.

Also, beginning in 1926 the highest year to year change in Germany’s GDP before the Great Depression began was a 10% increase in 1927. Germany’s GDP had a negative increase every year from 1929 to 1932, i.e., Germany’s economy got smaller. From 1933 to 1939 Germany’s GDP increased from year to year by more than 5% while 1937 and 1938 saw increases of over 10%.
Because they were building their war machine. If you don't count the buildup to war as part of the war then you can pretend that it wasn't the war buildup, but realistically it was the war machine that saved their economy, the same thing that saved ours. And counting it in 1926 when the economy was not run by the government (at that time they had not yet entered fascism) and ignoring the downturn before the beginning of the military buildup is just plain closing your eyes and shouting.

Come on, at least pay attention. They went down until the beginning of the military buildup.
 
The key would have been to design the code-making process with built-in checks and balances. I would have allowed business and industry owners to form chamber of commerce type organizations on the basis of common interests apart from just business and industry- geographic location, religion, politics etcetera. I would let the owners for each type of business and industry design codes for their business and industry but then the codes would have to have the approval of the entire group so the entire organization can be held in check; mutual accountability among people that do not share the exact same commercial interests would help insure the honesty of all of the members in the organization.
Or, more likely, it would result in a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" structure where all businesses, gathered together by mandate, cooperate for the benefit of business to the detriment of everyone else. Ever heard of price fixing? It is the result of competing businesses cooperating to increase their mutual profits. Do you not think if you force business to form a coalition, they would not end up cooperating in the same manner? Get real.

The NRA gave labor the right to unionize, but if your unemployment rate is in double digits and a strike is your only legal means of redress you really have no means of redress at all. So I would have given labor a say in making the codes as well, although I don’t know if labor should be represented based on job type or employer.
Yea, a perpetual labor contract agreement debate at the national level. That would work.....

I would then let the entire organization set up a charity that would provide health insurance and unemployment, disability and retirement pensions for the people that work for the members of the organization. These benefits would be transferable between employers as long as a worker remains employed by members of the organization.
Thus diminishing the ability of business to compete for qualified workers through differentiated wages and/or benefits.

And you would have ended up with a collapsed economy in place of the depression.


A long-term bad economy is bad for the nation. Social unrest is almost always bad for society and by not taking government action to stimulate the economy during a depression that depression could easily lead to revolution.
Except history shows every time the federal government tries to "stimulate" things, they end up, at best, creating an imbalance that ends up creating more problems, which then require more government intervention, creating more imbalance, until we end up with things like the Great Depression, and the crisis of today. At worst it completely fucks things up almost immediately, ala Carter in 1977.

The Great Depression was the result of the government trying to artificially avoid the post war depression from WWI. Had they left things be, a depression would have occurred, but of far lower impact and far faster recovery. The crisis of today is the result of government continually "stimulating" economic processes through artificially depressed interest rates, encouragement of high personal debt, etc. The bottom line: when government interferes, the economy eventually goes flooey, and in the meantime is highly unstable.

Then explain how Nazi Germany had a booming economy up until WWII even though the government ran the economy. I understand that the Nazis had a purpose in letting the government run the economy- rearmament and war- and this purpose created a false demand for industrial output that allowed an economic recovery that may not have otherwise happened. But it does show how a government-run economy can be a successful economy at least in the short term.
You explained it yourself. The boom economy of pre WWII Germany was the direct result of Hitler putting Germany into a full blown war economy. Our economy, too, boomed during WWII. It boomed during WWI. Economies always boom during wartime as production is vastly increased to meet the artificially inflated needs of war, no matter who is in charge. And take note, that in order to take full control of the economy, practically every other personal liberty was also taken away. You want to trade your liberty for some idealized economic stability? I do not.

Loss of artificially created demand is why post war depressions occur: because the demand created to support the war effort goes away, the industries built up and expanded to meet the demands of a war economy are then forced to shrink, resulting in negative economic growth until a new equilibrium is established.

Except we never allowed the equilibrium to get established after WWII. We almost immediately got embroiled in the Cold War, with Korea and Vietnam being hot spots in that military posturing conflict with the Soviets and Communist China.

When the Cold War diminished, the economy started to sag, we again failed to allow the economy to establish a new, natural equilibrium. The government stepped in with "stimulus" ideas like opening credit to lower economic strata. This created an imbalance which resulted in reformation of banking laws. When the natural consequence of lending money to people who could not afford to pay it back hit in the form of drastically increased bankruptcies, the government stepped in yet again with more adjustments, to include regulations requiring banks to make mortgage loans in low income areas. To counter thhat imbalance, they allowed banks to diminish the lending risk by selling high risk mortgages in large packages.

In short, it has all been a house of cards supported by government "stimulus" ideas and laws, with the occasional influx of government money that does not exists until they say it exists via the federal reserve. We face consistent and repeating economic crises BECAUSE government interference keeps setting up imbalances.


All Reagan did was deregulate and fail to enforce antitrust laws and the likes of Walmart and Home Depot and a destabilized banking and airline industry are the results. Reagan encouraged laissez-faire competition and the entire economy ultimately suffered.
Banking was not destabilized because of Reagan reducing regulation - it was destabilized because the idea of forcing banks to open credit in lower income strata, which caused the need for re-regulation and artificially depressed interest rates - coupled with allowing banks "high risk" rates to compensate for defaulted loans - is what destabilized the banks.

The airlines were artificially propped up by the government infrastructure. Of course when that infrastructure is removed, a readjustment is going to take place. The alternative would have been to accept the need for ever increasing government subsidy to keep that government mandated infrastructure running, with the end result of complete collapse of the industry later.

And I did say Reagan took his concept too far.
 
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Because they were building their war machine. If you don't count the buildup to war as part of the war then you can pretend that it wasn't the war buildup, but realistically it was the war machine that saved their economy, the same thing that saved ours.

I am well aware of the role that Germany's military build up played in Nazi economic policy; I did suggest that Germany's rearmament may have created demand for industrial output that may not have existed otherwise- something you seem to be ignoring. But this does not negate the fact that Germany's planned economy did better than America's more-or-less market economy did in the 1930s. I would venture that it is entirely possible to have a planned economy when the government's goal is something other than war- combating global warming for example.

I am not saying that an economy that is planned by the government is always a good thing. Neither am I saying that an economy that is planed by business and industry leaders for the benefit of business and industry leaders is a good thing. I am just wondering if you could have a planned economy that benefits all concerned without war or political oppression.
 
I am well aware of the role that Germany's military build up played in Nazi economic policy; I did suggest that Germany's rearmament may have created demand for industrial output that may not have existed otherwise- something you seem to be ignoring. But this does not negate the fact that Germany's planned economy did better than America's more-or-less market economy did in the 1930s. I would venture that it is entirely possible to have a planned economy when the government's goal is something other than war- combating global warming for example.

I am not saying that an economy that is planned by the government is always a good thing. Neither am I saying that an economy that is planed by business and industry leaders for the benefit of business and industry leaders is a good thing. I am just wondering if you could have a planned economy that benefits all concerned without war or political oppression.
*sigh*

Again, you ignore that the entirety of their planned economy revolved around war buildup, just as the war buildup here got us out of the Great Depression.

I know it is repetitive, but ignorance of this one fact makes you present a false premise; that it was government control that saved their behinds, it plain wasn't. Even if they had no government control and simply ordered the new equipment from the companies that made them the same effect would have taken place. The problem with these types of growth is you have war recessions afterward, Germany would only maintain growth as long as they continued in their war economy. It is artificial.
 
Or, more likely, it would result in a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" structure where all businesses, gathered together by mandate, cooperate for the benefit of business to the detriment of everyone else.

This would be determined by how many individual entities are involved in making the codes and what interests they represent. The more individuals involved the more likely it will be that some of them are honest. Also, let me reiterate that I would give labor (and thus consumers) a say in making the codes so the codes would not automatically be made to benefit the leaders of business and industry.

Yea, a perpetual labor contract agreement debate at the national level. That would work.....

Not really. You could stipulate that the codes could be revised only ever so often. Capital and labor/consumers would be obligated to live with the codes they decide on for a certain period of time. There wouldn’t have to be perpetual labor negotiations.

Thus diminishing the ability of business to compete for qualified workers through differentiated wages and/or benefits.

How so? If all employers have the same pool of labor to draw from, they couldn’t use employment policies to gain an unfair advantage over their competitors.

Except history shows every time the federal government tries to "stimulate" things, they end up, at best, creating an imbalance that ends up creating more problems, which then require more government intervention, creating more imbalance, until we end up with things like the Great Depression, and the crisis of today. At worst it completely fucks things up almost immediately, ala Carter in 1977.

Your documentation? Can you prove that the Great Depression would not have lead to revolution had the government not intervened? This is precisely what happened in the Weimar Republic.

The Great Depression was the result of the government trying to artificially avoid the post war depression from WWI.

The government did this how?

Had they left things be, a depression would have occurred, but of far lower impact and far faster recovery.

Documentation?

You explained it yourself. The boom economy of pre WWII Germany was the direct result of Hitler putting Germany into a full blown war economy.

As I just said in a previous post, I am not convinced that militarization is the only way the government can stimulate an economy. Actually the U.S. has a long history of federal involvement in internal improvements (roads, canals, railroads)- which usually allowed the economy to expand without war.

Our economy, too, boomed during WWII. It boomed during WWI.

But not during the 1930s. The trouble with Germany is that the government’s demand for war materiel did not lead to a general revival of consumer demand for other products because the government saw to it that the economy couldn’t produce much in the way of other products. Reagan’s defense build up in the 1980s stimulated the economy enough to get out it of recession but this stimulation expanded the economy enough that non-defense demand could take over and thereby turn a recovery into an expansion. Roosevelt could have done the same thing simply by maintaining military parity with Germany and then allowing the economy to produce non-military goods.

And take note, that in order to take full control of the economy, practically every other personal liberty was also taken away.

Documentation? What about the planned economy that the U.S. had during World War I- which is where many New Dealers got their training.

Wouldn’t the loss of personal liberty have as much to do with the character of the people who are losing it as it does with any government policy designed to take it? You might stampede Germans or Russians into giving up personal liberty, but you likely couldn’t do the same thing to Americans or Brits.

Loss of artificially created demand is why post war depressions occur:

Then explain why most recessions in U.S. history did not come after the end of a war- 1797, 1807, 1837, 1860, 1882, 1887, 1890, 1893, 1895, 1907, 1910, 1913, 1926, 1929, 1957, 1960, 1980, 2001 and the one ongoing right now.

The U.S. was technically in recession for 8 months in 1945 due to decreased GDP that resulted from World War II coming to an end. But when World War II ended the main problem in the U.S. was inflation while business and industry converted to a peacetime footing and factories were converted to make consumer goods. When the war ended American consumers had money that they had been unable to spend on consumer goods during the war. That reservoir of disposable income prevented a post-war recession- the next one not coming until 1948.

Except we never allowed the equilibrium to get established after WWII. We almost immediately got embroiled in the Cold War

The Cold War did not always lead to an economy based demand for war materiel. There were times that the U.S. woefully neglected its military.

When the Cold War diminished, the economy started to sag,

Actually the Cold War was not entirely over when recession came in 1990. This recession was caused mainly by a panic over energy prices that came with Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait- much the same way that the recession of 2001 was cause by panic over 9-11.

Banking was not destabilized because of Reagan reducing regulation - it was destabilized because the idea of forcing banks to open credit in lower income strata, which caused the need for re-regulation and artificially depressed interest rates - coupled with allowing banks "high risk" rates to compensate for defaulted loans - is what destabilized the banks.

The savings and loan industry wasn’t deregulated by Reagan?

The airlines were artificially propped up by the government infrastructure.

How so?
 
I am a retired former Marine, not your personal teacher. Go learn something, then come back. But choose your school better - the last one really fucked you up.

Hint: post war depressions do occur. They are the result of a sudden drop off in demand for materials, causing the associated industries to shrink. The level of war costs in comparison to the overall economy pre-war has a strong effect on the depth of the depression, which is why the cold war, Korea, and Vietnam ended as minor blips in the otherwise unstable fluctuations caused by various forms of government interference since WWI.

I don't know where you got your list of "recessions" (Especially when we are talking about depressions) but if you look at a timeline graph of economic performance in the U.S., it drops significantly after every war in which we were forced to move to deficit spending.

We never have been under a controlled economy. The so-called "planned" economy we operated under during WWI was not nearly as controlled as you imply - especially since the comparison is to Nazi Germany, which is what I was referring to. WWII was much more "controlled" when you factor in rationing and other war-effort measures. (But then, FDR was a much more controlling, anti-liberty president....)

OTOH, when Hitler went to a FULLY controlled economy under fascism, he also ended up controlling everything else. Similarly, both the Soviet plan and Maoist plan demanded control of liberties in order to maintain control over the economy.

You cannot control the economy effectively without controlling all factors that influence the economy - and that includes the people, what they do, where they go, their "chosen" profession, etc. That is why the concept of "democratic socialism" is for the brain dead in their drug induced hallucinations of utopia. Economic socialism cannot work unless other factors are controlled also, and there goes any real form of democracy.
 
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