Oh Lord, where Ark thou?

Taichiliberal said:
A little reality slap in the face for creationists (God forgive me, but I couldn't resist): :D




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I'm always amused by people who demand that we accept literally the words of the Bible either in support of or in opposition to anything.

If we assume that the folks who felt the inspired word of God were actually in communication with an Entity or Entities that understood the mysteries of the cosmos, we are also presented with other understandings.

First and foremost, the Humans with whom the Entities were communicating to relay Biblical stories of creation were stone age shepherds on the threshold between Hunter Gatherers and Shepherds.

They understood NOTHING about anything beyond not starving today.

ANYTHING they heard would be interpreted within their own understandings. Then that understanding was passed down as an oral tradition for centuries until written down in their native language.

Then those writings would need to be translated from one language to the next and, very likely, "improved" as the thoughts were passed from one language to the next and one generation to the next.

Finally, we see a guy like "Bill Nye, the Science Guy", noted charlatan and moron, asserting that this parable is a scientific recounting of an actual event.

We know with absolute certainty that the fossil record contains evidence of "choke points" in evolution revealing mass extinction events.

If told of mass extinction events by an Entity with great knowledge, what might a stone age shepherd build in to his understanding? Perhaps a flood? Seems reasonable.

There is also the probable reality of sea level rise after the last Ice Age that caused entire currently existing seas to fill abruptly as the ocean waters crested over natural dams like the Straights of Gibraltar.

Floods wiping out entire civilizations would have been likely given that sort of sea level rise. The legends of great floods and great cities simply disappearing are pretty common. Real events to inspire them seem likely.
 
Code1211 said:
I'm always amused by people who demand that we accept literally the words of the Bible....
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Agreed. Most Bible literalists/Creationists are delusional morons. Most of them on the backside of the IQ Bell Curve.

As the study below and others prove; the more intelligent and/or educated, the less "religious", meaning strictly following dogma. I firmly believe there is more to existence than what we experience as mortals, but do not adhere to religious dogma such as not eating hotdogs or avoiding sex with a menstruating woman (Thank God for large shower stalls!!!)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23921675/
A meta-analysis of 63 studies showed a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity. The association was stronger for college students and the general population than for participants younger than college age; it was also stronger for religious beliefs than religious behavior. For college students and the general population, means of weighted and unweighted correlations between intelligence and the strength of religious beliefs ranged from -.20 to -.25 (mean r = -.24). Three possible interpretations were discussed. First, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma. Second, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs. Third, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
 
Code1211 said:
I'm always amused by people who demand that we accept literally the words of the Bible either in support of or in opposition to anything.
....
Finally, we see a guy like "Bill Nye, the Science Guy", noted charlatan and moron, asserting that this parable is a scientific recounting of an actual event.
Click to expand...

Don't say this stuff out loud in the typical fundie Xtian church. They'd agree with you about Nye, but burn you at the stake for the refusal to accept the Bible as the literal and infallible word of god.

Once upon a time in America there was no public conflict between science (particularly evolutionary science) and the Bible. Almost all Christians accepted the stories in the OT as allegory rather than as literal events. The evangelical RWers changed that, to the point where they *still* agitate to have creationism taught in public school science classes.
 
I am going to place greater weight on what the Jewish Rabbinic tradition says about it. Genesis is Jewish scripture and written by Jews, not by christians.
 
Code1211 said:
I'm always amused by people who demand that we accept literally the words of the Bible either in support of or in opposition to anything.

If we assume that the folks who felt the inspired word of God were actually in communication with an Entity or Entities that understood the mysteries of the cosmos, we are also presented with other understandings.

First and foremost, the Humans with whom the Entities were communicating to relay Biblical stories of creation were stone age shepherds on the threshold between Hunter Gatherers and Shepherds.

They understood NOTHING about anything beyond not starving today.

ANYTHING they heard would be interpreted within their own understandings. Then that understanding was passed down as an oral tradition for centuries until written down in their native language.

Then those writings would need to be translated from one language to the next and, very likely, "improved" as the thoughts were passed from one language to the next and one generation to the next.

Finally, we see a guy like "Bill Nye, the Science Guy", noted charlatan and moron, asserting that this parable is a scientific recounting of an actual event.

We know with absolute certainty that the fossil record contains evidence of "choke points" in evolution revealing mass extinction events.

If told of mass extinction events by an Entity with great knowledge, what might a stone age shepherd build in to his understanding? Perhaps a flood? Seems reasonable.

There is also the probable reality of sea level rise after the last Ice Age that caused entire currently existing seas to fill abruptly as the ocean waters crested over natural dams like the Straights of Gibraltar.

Floods wiping out entire civilizations would have been likely given that sort of sea level rise. The legends of great floods and great cities simply disappearing are pretty common. Real events to inspire them seem likely.
Click to expand...

Some points of contention: you wrote, "...
Finally, we see a guy like "Bill Nye, the Science Guy", noted charlatan and moron, asserting that this parable is a scientific recounting of an actual event."

FYI: Nye has a B.S. in mechanical engineering from Cornell. He also has six honorary doctorate degrees, including Ph.D.s in science from Goucher College and Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. He was on the team at the NASA and California Institute of Technology’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory to design and create the MarsDial, a sundial and camera calibrator attached to the Mars Exploration Rover. So he's not a theologian nor an archeologist by training. But despite his TV flamboyance, he's hardly as you described, and his simple analysis of the topic at hand could NOT be discarded or refuted.

And you must remember, the current acceptance is that Moses existed during the Bronze Age .... about the same time as it's believed the pyramids of Egypt were constructed.

But I agree with you regarding local phenomena being interpreted as a "world" event.
 
Cypress said:
I am going to place greater weight on what the Jewish Rabbinic tradition says about it. Genesis is Jewish scripture and written by Jews, not by christians.
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Makes sense....go to the source rather than the "dissenters". Still, ya gotta admit Nye's analogy is pretty hard to shake off.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed. Most Bible literalists/Creationists are delusional morons. Most of them on the backside of the IQ Bell Curve.

As the study below and others prove; the more intelligent and/or educated, the less "religious", meaning strictly following dogma. I firmly believe there is more to existence than what we experience as mortals, but do not adhere to religious dogma such as not eating hotdogs or avoiding sex with a menstruating woman (Thank God for large shower stalls!!!)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23921675/
A meta-analysis of 63 studies showed a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity. The association was stronger for college students and the general population than for participants younger than college age; it was also stronger for religious beliefs than religious behavior. For college students and the general population, means of weighted and unweighted correlations between intelligence and the strength of religious beliefs ranged from -.20 to -.25 (mean r = -.24). Three possible interpretations were discussed. First, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma. Second, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs. Third, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
Click to expand...

Ahh, but remember that there are levels of intelligence that are not (and sometimes cannot) be measured by contemporary standards. Case in point; the "savants syndrome", or just your average schmoe who never made it past high school yet becomes an ace repair mechanic, or the street kid who can challenge world class chess champions. Then you have folk like the Dali Lama, who's education would NOT meet EU/Western standards, yet is revered for his wisdom.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Ahh, but remember that there are levels of intelligence that are not (and sometimes cannot) be measured by contemporary standards. Case in point; the "savants syndrome", or just your average schmoe who never made it past high school yet becomes an ace repair mechanic, or the street kid who can challenge world class chess champions. Then you have folk like the Dali Lama, who's education would NOT meet EU/Western standards, yet is revered for his wisdom.
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Agreed, but in general, people fall under the bell curve despite some of them thinking they are Ted Kaczynski.

The Dali Lama's entire life was devoted to a religion. He was home schooled.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Quote Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Ahh, but remember that there are levels of intelligence that are not (and sometimes cannot) be measured by contemporary standards. Case in point; the "savants syndrome", or just your average schmoe who never made it past high school yet becomes an ace repair mechanic, or the street kid who can challenge world class chess champions. Then you have folk like the Dali Lama, who's education would NOT meet EU/Western standards, yet is revered for his wisdom.
Click to expand...



Agreed, but in general, people fall under the bell curve despite some of them thinking they are Ted Kaczynski.

The Dali Lama's entire life was devoted to a religion. He was home schooled.
Click to expand...

Nope, can't go by that because you have people who have passed all the tests, obtained positions of stature in society and are STILL followers of (choose your favorite) religious dogma. Doctors, lawyers, financiers, scientists, engineers, etc .... you'll find them all in some temple or church or synagogue.

And not to be difficult, but the Dali Lama's education was not "home schooling"...as what he was educated in (including medicine) is not available to the local population in the "public school" model. Just saying.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Nope, can't go by that because you have people who have passed all the tests, obtained positions of stature in society and are STILL followers of (choose your favorite) religious dogma. Doctors, lawyers, financiers, scientists, engineers, etc .... you'll find them all in some temple or church or synagogue.

And not to be difficult, but the Dali Lama's education was not "home schooling"...as what he was educated in (including medicine) is not available to the local population in the "public school" model. Just saying.
Click to expand...

Life is complicated. Quit worrying about it so much and try enjoying it more. :thup:
 
Code1211 said:
I'm always amused by people who demand that we accept literally the words of the Bible either in support of or in opposition to anything.

If we assume that the folks who felt the inspired word of God were actually in communication with an Entity or Entities that understood the mysteries of the cosmos, we are also presented with other understandings.

First and foremost, the Humans with whom the Entities were communicating to relay Biblical stories of creation were stone age shepherds on the threshold between Hunter Gatherers and Shepherds.

They understood NOTHING about anything beyond not starving today.

ANYTHING they heard would be interpreted within their own understandings. Then that understanding was passed down as an oral tradition for centuries until written down in their native language.

Then those writings would need to be translated from one language to the next and, very likely, "improved" as the thoughts were passed from one language to the next and one generation to the next.

Finally, we see a guy like "Bill Nye, the Science Guy", noted charlatan and moron, asserting that this parable is a scientific recounting of an actual event.

We know with absolute certainty that the fossil record contains evidence of "choke points" in evolution revealing mass extinction events.

If told of mass extinction events by an Entity with great knowledge, what might a stone age shepherd build in to his understanding? Perhaps a flood? Seems reasonable.

There is also the probable reality of sea level rise after the last Ice Age that caused entire currently existing seas to fill abruptly as the ocean waters crested over natural dams like the Straights of Gibraltar.

Floods wiping out entire civilizations would have been likely given that sort of sea level rise. The legends of great floods and great cities simply disappearing are pretty common. Real events to inspire them seem likely.
Click to expand...

You don't know how high the water was BEFORE the flood!
The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, so it doesn't matter how primitive the people were,that God chose to tell his story thru.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed. Most Bible literalists/Creationists are delusional morons. Most of them on the backside of the IQ Bell Curve.

As the study below and others prove; the more intelligent and/or educated, the less "religious", meaning strictly following dogma. I firmly believe there is more to existence than what we experience as mortals, but do not adhere to religious dogma such as not eating hotdogs or avoiding sex with a menstruating woman (Thank God for large shower stalls!!!)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23921675/
A meta-analysis of 63 studies showed a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity. The association was stronger for college students and the general population than for participants younger than college age; it was also stronger for religious beliefs than religious behavior. For college students and the general population, means of weighted and unweighted correlations between intelligence and the strength of religious beliefs ranged from -.20 to -.25 (mean r = -.24). Three possible interpretations were discussed. First, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma. Second, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs. Third, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
Click to expand...

You present this study as if specific beliefs reveal innate intelligence.

Less conformity, more analytical review and greater self control. I would argue that the opposite is true of most of the folks that are self identifying non-religious.

Litmus testing is common for all political party affiliation. That is conformity. Really no different in any appreciable way from one party to the next..

Refusing to critically discuss "accepted science" is an identifying mark of some advocates. They seem to disregard that science, even if "accepted" is STILL open to question and challenge. Refusing to review is dogma, not science.

One entire political party's dogma is based on the inability of their constituents to exercise ANY sort of self control whether it's not looting, not paying back loans they agreed to pay back or not having unprotected sex out of wedlock.

Politics aside, there are LITERALLY billions of people on the planet that will tell you with absolute confidence that their lives were changed by the welcomed intervention of a higher power that is not a physical being.

I am one of them.

I find it interesting that so many seem to find satisfaction in demonstrating that they are superior to others and use religion as one of the cudgels to beat down those that they hope to demean. This is demonstrated by both the religious and the non-religious.

On a different topic, 95% of the universe, say our scientists, is comprised of Dark Matter and Dark Energy. Only the puny 5% of the Universe left over is what we can see or experience in any way.

It seems, based on those numbers, that it more likely that life would exist in the 95% of the universe that we cannot see than in the 5% of the universe that we CAN see.

That unseen and indefinable life could be what we call "spiritual". I'm not claiming that it is- just being open to the idea.

Our scientists also say that Dark Matter and Dark Energy existed BEFORE the Big Bang. The existence of stuff and energy that we can't see or experience physically is a scientific reality. You know, ACCEPTED SCIENCE.

Dark Matter and Dark Energy is everywhere. It is around you, in you and moving through you. It's between your eyes and the screen you are reading right now. It existed before the Big Bang and guided the arrangement of Galaxies in space.

Does this sound at all like the descriptions of God asserted by the religious?

It could be that when the supposed "intelligent folks" have closed completely their minds to certain possibilities that closure of minds is the thing that allows them to be non-religious. Is a closed mind an intelligent mind?

Closed minds are not as non-conforming, analytical or self actualizing as you may assert them to be. They are simply closed and clinging bitterly to the dogma they have chosen.
 
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