Pro Gun Sandy Hook father tells it like it is

christiefan915 said:
:rolleyes: Pro-gun parent didn't have a kid in the school.
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christie, please stop being a mouth breather. he's a father of a former student one year older.... his daughters friend sister was killed. Are you really going to try and pretend there aren't a lot of sandy hook parents that don't support gun rights? Not everyone supports your fascist agenda.
 
I respect the views of gun rights advocates to a degree, and the 2nd amendment.

I think what people on the pro-gun side don't get is the desperation of their fellow countrymen when it comes to the gun culture. I think a lot of those folks understand that logically, none of the measures proposed after Sandy Hook would really prevent a Sandy Hook - but they're desperate. There is a reason why America basically leads the world in gun violence. Can we say that it's just Hollywood & video games & that side of the spectrum? I'm sure there is some of that, but they get the same movies in England.

We have a gun culture, and a large segment of the country that doesn't just support gun rights - they essentially worship guns. That, to a lot of people, is at the root of the problem.
 
Thing1 said:
I respect the views of gun rights advocates to a degree, and the 2nd amendment.

I think what people on the pro-gun side don't get is the desperation of their fellow countrymen when it comes to the gun culture. I think a lot of those folks understand that logically, none of the measures proposed after Sandy Hook would really prevent a Sandy Hook - but they're desperate. There is a reason why America basically leads the world in gun violence. Can we say that it's just Hollywood & video games & that side of the spectrum? I'm sure there is some of that, but they get the same movies in England.

We have a gun culture, and a large segment of the country that doesn't just support gun rights - they essentially worship guns. That, to a lot of people, is at the root of the problem.
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and I think you're wrong. what we have in this country is not a gun culture, but a victim culture. too many people out there don't want to defend themselves, which is why they practically worship cops or give police so many more 'rights' than the regular citizen. It's ludicrous. If people would get away from the victim mindset and take charge of their lives and become responsible for their own safety, we'd see alot less of this so called gun violence.
 
Thing1 said:
I respect the views of gun rights advocates to a degree, and the 2nd amendment.

I think what people on the pro-gun side don't get is the desperation of their fellow countrymen when it comes to the gun culture. I think a lot of those folks understand that logically, none of the measures proposed after Sandy Hook would really prevent a Sandy Hook - but they're desperate. There is a reason why America basically leads the world in gun violence.
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Thank you for admitting this. Yes, I see the desperation.... and it shows me that the gun grabbers are weak-minded and irrational, and that they are mental midgets. They betray reason so that they can have their temper tantrum.
 
Superb Owl said:
Thank you for admitting this. Yes, I see the desperation.... and it shows me that the gun grabbers are weak-minded and irrational, and that they are mental midgets. They betray reason so that they can have their temper tantrum.
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Same basic answer as STY. So, what's your solution?

Is the solution to America leading the world in gun violence really more guns? I keep hearing that. That, to me, defies the reason you refer to above. One thing a gun-worshipping country doesn't need is more false idols.
 
Thing1 said:
Same basic answer as STY. So, what's your solution?

Is the solution to America leading the world in gun violence really more guns? I keep hearing that. That, to me, defies the reason you refer to above. One thing a gun-worshipping country doesn't need is more false idols.
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Well, as we know (if you aren't a temper tantrum having gun grabber) the availability of guns does NOT correlate to gun violence. The areas with more guns in this country have less gun violence than the areas with less guns. Furthermore, even though our country has the most guns per capita in the entire world, we are ranked only 27th in gun violence... again... gun availability does NOT correlate with gun violence.

Therefore, I do not see restricting guns, or making stupid laws like "gun free zones" as effective or worthy of our attention. I do not believe this is the type of issue that can be legislated, and I don't believe that it is possible for prohibition to work, with 300 million guns already on the ground. Liberals realize the drug war doesn't work, but their hypocrisy blocks them from seeing it's the same fucking argument with guns in our country.

I am not inherently opposed to background checks, but letting the government define that is a huge danger, as now you give the government the power to declare anyone they want as mentally unstable. Went to a therapist once 7 years ago cause you were feeling depressed? Oops.. no gun for you.

At the end of the day, given that guns are here to stay, the fact that they cannot be effectively regulated, the fact we dont want to have another black market, gun free zones don't work, the fact that they are trying to ban "assault weapons" even though in most cases those guns are actually safer than handguns, the fact that guns don't correlate to gun violence my solution is:

1) Don't do fuck all. 10k-14k deaths a year is a drop in the bucket. It is not significant, or even worthy of a headline. It is absolutely 100% worth 14k people dying each year to preserve the 2nd amendment. As I have already pointed out in other threads, 100,000 people die each year because doctors don't wash their hands. 33k people die each year in car accidents. 14k out of 300 million is simply not a big number... it's not relevant or noteworthy in any way. I don't even recognize gun violence as a substantial problem.... I don't see a problem, it's virtually non-existent.

2) you can try to get mental people help. But ultimately we have a culture of violence that glorifies putting people in their place and believes violence is an acceptable solution to problems. This is a very complicated issue, but it wont be solved by banning guns, but completely changing our culture from inside out. I personally believe this is impossible in america, but you can try.
 
Bijou once argued anyone who takes an anti-depressant shouldn't be able to own a gun. I look at myself, I have A.D.D. I take medication for it which includes an anti-depressant. I've never been in a fight in my life. I have no criminal record. Should I still be banned from owning a gun if I wanted one?

This is just one senario of course but I see why people don't want to give up their rights easily.
 
have mild anxiety? no gun. Broke up with your girlfriend and were really bummed out for a month? no gun... you have history of depression.

You give the government an inch and they will take a mile. I don't want them getting their foot anywhere.

The only types of people that shouldn't have guns are people that had to go to a mental institution at some point. REAL crazies, not all the bullshit government would want to define as crazy.
 
Thing1 said:
Same basic answer as STY. So, what's your solution?

Is the solution to America leading the world in gun violence really more guns? I keep hearing that. That, to me, defies the reason you refer to above. One thing a gun-worshipping country doesn't need is more false idols.
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Well for starters stop trying to classify gun violence as separate from non-gun violence. That is intellectually misleading and makes me believe that many anti-freedom people view non-gun violence as morally superior. It's not. Violence is violence regardless of the means that are used to carry it out. It also implies that WHY people carry out violent acts is because it's something to do. That ignores that crime and violence are acts by individuals with a purpose behind them. People don't rob a liquor store because they have a gun, they do it because they need money.

So what are SOME of the causes of violence? Poor education opportunities, poverty in general, the drug war which increasingly makes it difficult for the poor to get out of poverty. Another aspect that no one wants to admit to is the lack of ethnic homogeny. Lets look at Japan, like so many anti-freedom people want. Yes they have very few guns and low crime (also one of the highest suicide rates in the entire world) but they're also ethnically 98+% Japanese. And their culture is one that isn't focused on the individual but the team as a whole. In short they're radically diffierent from us who promote and foster the idea that everyone is different and is a 'hyphenated American', as well as being firm in the belief that we as an individual matters most. Now I'm not saying these are bad in the context of our national culture, don't get me wrong. I firmly support such ideas and culture, but that doesn't mean it is flawless. It's not.

Another aspect that shouldn't be ignored, when talking about my generation anyways, is that fact that we've been at war our entire adult lives and our entire formative years (from age 5 on). EVERYONE knows someone personally who is a vet or died in war or fought in it themselves. For my entire life as far as I can remember that's all I've known. Obviously I'm not an expert on mental health but I'd put down a lot of money that being exposed to war for 2 decades might affect some people, especially young people, adversely.

And like Grind said, statistically speaking, those children killed don't exist. They make up a percentage so small it would be written off as an anomaly in any other field of study or research. And if you cannot reliably reproduce said anomaly, then you cannot fix it, nor should you waste time and effort trying. I feel for everyone who loses a family member or friend, I truly do. But that doesn't make an obvious appeal to emotion suddenly valid.
 
Superb Owl said:
Well, as we know (if you aren't a temper tantrum having gun grabber) the availability of guns does NOT correlate to gun violence. The areas with more guns in this country have less gun violence than the areas with less guns. Furthermore, even though our country has the most guns per capita in the entire world, we are ranked only 27th in gun violence... again... gun availability does NOT correlate with gun violence.

Therefore, I do not see restricting guns, or making stupid laws like "gun free zones" as effective or worthy of our attention. I do not believe this is the type of issue that can be legislated, and I don't believe that it is possible for prohibition to work, with 300 million guns already on the ground. Liberals realize the drug war doesn't work, but their hypocrisy blocks them from seeing it's the same fucking argument with guns in our country.

I am not inherently opposed to background checks, but letting the government define that is a huge danger, as now you give the government the power to declare anyone they want as mentally unstable. Went to a therapist once 7 years ago cause you were feeling depressed? Oops.. no gun for you.

At the end of the day, given that guns are here to stay, the fact that they cannot be effectively regulated, the fact we dont want to have another black market, gun free zones don't work, the fact that they are trying to ban "assault weapons" even though in most cases those guns are actually safer than handguns, the fact that guns don't correlate to gun violence my solution is:

1) Don't do fuck all. 10k-14k deaths a year is a drop in the bucket. It is not significant, or even worthy of a headline. It is absolutely 100% worth 14k people dying each year to preserve the 2nd amendment. As I have already pointed out in other threads, 100,000 people die each year because doctors don't wash their hands. 33k people die each year in car accidents. 14k out of 300 million is simply not a big number... it's not relevant or noteworthy in any way. I don't even recognize gun violence as a substantial problem.... I don't see a problem, it's virtually non-existent.

2) you can try to get mental people help. But ultimately we have a culture of violence that glorifies putting people in their place and believes violence is an acceptable solution to problems. This is a very complicated issue, but it wont be solved by banning guns, but completely changing our culture from inside out. I personally believe this is impossible in america, but you can try.
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I like to know the true number of people getting shot because of prohibition related issues/matters.
 
Superb Owl said:
Well, as we know (if you aren't a temper tantrum having gun grabber) the availability of guns does NOT correlate to gun violence. The areas with more guns in this country have less gun violence than the areas with less guns. Furthermore, even though our country has the most guns per capita in the entire world, we are ranked only 27th in gun violence... again... gun availability does NOT correlate with gun violence.

Therefore, I do not see restricting guns, or making stupid laws like "gun free zones" as effective or worthy of our attention. I do not believe this is the type of issue that can be legislated, and I don't believe that it is possible for prohibition to work, with 300 million guns already on the ground. Liberals realize the drug war doesn't work, but their hypocrisy blocks them from seeing it's the same fucking argument with guns in our country.

I am not inherently opposed to background checks, but letting the government define that is a huge danger, as now you give the government the power to declare anyone they want as mentally unstable. Went to a therapist once 7 years ago cause you were feeling depressed? Oops.. no gun for you.

At the end of the day, given that guns are here to stay, the fact that they cannot be effectively regulated, the fact we dont want to have another black market, gun free zones don't work, the fact that they are trying to ban "assault weapons" even though in most cases those guns are actually safer than handguns, the fact that guns don't correlate to gun violence my solution is:

1) Don't do fuck all. 10k-14k deaths a year is a drop in the bucket. It is not significant, or even worthy of a headline. It is absolutely 100% worth 14k people dying each year to preserve the 2nd amendment. As I have already pointed out in other threads, 100,000 people die each year because doctors don't wash their hands. 33k people die each year in car accidents. 14k out of 300 million is simply not a big number... it's not relevant or noteworthy in any way. I don't even recognize gun violence as a substantial problem.... I don't see a problem, it's virtually non-existent.

2) you can try to get mental people help. But ultimately we have a culture of violence that glorifies putting people in their place and believes violence is an acceptable solution to problems. This is a very complicated issue, but it wont be solved by banning guns, but completely changing our culture from inside out. I personally believe this is impossible in america, but you can try.
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Well at least you're honest enough to admit you're willing to sacrifice another person just so you could buy a gun.

If you feel this strongly, then how about you volunteer to be one of the unimportant 14,000 killed in the name of the 2nd amendment.
 
Sinn Fein said:
Well for starters stop trying to classify gun violence as separate from non-gun violence. That is intellectually misleading and makes me believe that many anti-freedom people view non-gun violence as morally superior. It's not. Violence is violence regardless of the means that are used to carry it out. It also implies that WHY people carry out violent acts is because it's something to do. That ignores that crime and violence are acts by individuals with a purpose behind them. People don't rob a liquor store because they have a gun, they do it because they need money.

So what are SOME of the causes of violence? Poor education opportunities, poverty in general, the drug war which increasingly makes it difficult for the poor to get out of poverty. Another aspect that no one wants to admit to is the lack of ethnic homogeny. Lets look at Japan, like so many anti-freedom people want. Yes they have very few guns and low crime (also one of the highest suicide rates in the entire world) but they're also ethnically 98+% Japanese. And their culture is one that isn't focused on the individual but the team as a whole. In short they're radically diffierent from us who promote and foster the idea that everyone is different and is a 'hyphenated American', as well as being firm in the belief that we as an individual matters most. Now I'm not saying these are bad in the context of our national culture, don't get me wrong. I firmly support such ideas and culture, but that doesn't mean it is flawless. It's not.

Another aspect that shouldn't be ignored, when talking about my generation anyways, is that fact that we've been at war our entire adult lives and our entire formative years (from age 5 on). EVERYONE knows someone personally who is a vet or died in war or fought in it themselves. For my entire life as far as I can remember that's all I've known. Obviously I'm not an expert on mental health but I'd put down a lot of money that being exposed to war for 2 decades might affect some people, especially young people, adversely.

And like Grind said, statistically speaking, those children killed don't exist. They make up a percentage so small it would be written off as an anomaly in any other field of study or research. And if you cannot reliably reproduce said anomaly, then you cannot fix it, nor should you waste time and effort trying. I feel for everyone who loses a family member or friend, I truly do. But that doesn't make an obvious appeal to emotion suddenly valid.
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Another selfish pig willing to watch another person's child be killed so he can keep his guns.

So very brave when it's someone's life on the line...

If that percentage is so infinitesimally small, then surely you're willing to put your money where your mouth is and sacrifice yourself to save another?
 
ZappasGuitar said:
Well at least you're honest enough to admit you're willing to sacrifice another person just so you could buy a gun.

If you feel this strongly, then how about you volunteer to be one of the unimportant 14,000 killed in the name of the 2nd amendment.
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Who's to say any proposed legislation will save any kids going forward?
 
ZappasGuitar said:
Another selfish pig willing to watch another person's child be killed so he can keep his guns.

So very brave when it's someone's life on the line...

If that percentage is so infinitesimally small, then surely you're willing to put your money where your mouth is and sacrifice yourself to save another?
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I'd GLADLY die to preserve freedom.
 
ZappasGuitar said:
Well at least you're honest enough to admit you're willing to sacrifice another person just so you could buy a gun.

If you feel this strongly, then how about you volunteer to be one of the unimportant 14,000 killed in the name of the 2nd amendment.
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ummm no. my life is the most important.

you sacrifice peoples live every day. you have accepted that 33k dying each year is worth you having a car. You have accepted that 3k citizens dying in 9/11 isn't enough to convince you to support the patriot act, even though it would make it undoubtedly easier to catch terrorists. You do the same thing I do, you just aren't conscious of it. I just try to cut through the bullshit. But you do the same. exact. thing.
 
Thing1 said:
Same basic answer as STY. So, what's your solution?

Is the solution to America leading the world in gun violence really more guns? I keep hearing that. That, to me, defies the reason you refer to above. One thing a gun-worshipping country doesn't need is more false idols.
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let's put it this way. If 4 gangbangers wanted to do a drive by in south chicago, but every parent on the street watching their kids play had an AR15 ready to shoot back, do you think the drive by would still happen?
 
ZappasGuitar said:
Another selfish pig willing to watch another person's child be killed so he can keep his guns.

So very brave when it's someone's life on the line...

If that percentage is so infinitesimally small, then surely you're willing to put your money where your mouth is and sacrifice yourself to save another?
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do you drink or drive a car?
 
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