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flaja

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And everyone else here who believe in original intent:

I want a point blank answer- does original intent give the Congress any role in promoting commerce, literature or science? Does original intent give the Congress any role in public education? Does any given Founding Father’s original intent take precedence over any other’s? If you had to choose, whose original intent is the most important- Madison’s? Hamilton’s? Washington’s? Or did all 3 have the same original intent?
 
And everyone else here who believe in original intent:

I want a point blank answer- does original intent give the Congress any role in promoting commerce, literature or science? Does original intent give the Congress any role in public education? Does any given Founding Father’s original intent take precedence over any other’s? If you had to choose, whose original intent is the most important- Madison’s? Hamilton’s? Washington’s? Or did all 3 have the same original intent?

Since the Constitution tackles commerce, I would say yes to that, and since it also tackles copyrights and patents, I would say yes to literature and science as well. Personally, I think it is appropriate for the federal govt. to fund public education, and the founding fathers certainly valued a liberal arts education very much. As for the feds getting involved with regulating educational standards and curriculum (ala NCLB), I'm not a huge fan of that...
 
And everyone else here who believe in original intent:

I want a point blank answer- [1]does original intent give the Congress any role in promoting commerce, literature or science? [2]Does original intent give the Congress any role in public education? [3]Does any given Founding Father’s original intent take precedence over any other’s? [4]If you had to choose, whose original intent is the most important- Madison’s? Hamilton’s? Washington’s? Or did all 3 have the same original intent?

1. Congress has the Constitutional authority to set standards and award patents, not fund these.
2. No.
3. Yes, those who authored it or published opinions of it prior to its ratification.
4. See #3.
 
Since the Constitution tackles commerce, I would say yes to that, and since it also tackles copyrights and patents, I would say yes to literature and science as well. Personally, I think it is appropriate for the federal govt. to fund public education, and the founding fathers certainly valued a liberal arts education very much. As for the feds getting involved with regulating educational standards and curriculum (ala NCLB), I'm not a huge fan of that...

Let me clarify: Can Congress promote science, literature and commerce because of its patent and regulatory powers? Or does promotion go beyond original intent?
 
3. Yes, those who authored it or published opinions of it prior to its ratification.
4. See #3.

What about men who didn’t publicly participate in the ratification process but who later had role in implementing the Constitution because they held public office?
 

Why? What about when the person in question was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and thus had a role in drafting the document? Is such a man denied an original intent just because he never went public with his views before holding office?
 
Why? What about when the person in question was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and thus had a role in drafting the document? Is such a man denied an original intent just because he never went public with his views before holding office?
He's not denied completely, but has less influence than those who voiced their opinion during the critical stage of public acceptance.

I don't claim to be a legal scholar by the way. But I am trained to look at evidence to find the intent of the original builder. What some remodeler did later just gets in the way of that.
 
He's not denied completely, but has less influence than those who voiced their opinion during the critical stage of public acceptance.

Why? If the Founding Fathers could not present a consistent idea of what the Constitution's original intent is, how could the public at large possiblly have any clue? If the Founding Fathers didn't agree on what the Constitution means, how could the American People know with certainty what the Constitution means?
 
Why? If the Founding Fathers could not present a consistent idea of what the Constitution's original intent is, how could the public at large possiblly have any clue? If the Founding Fathers didn't agree on what the Constitution means, how could the American People know with certainty what the Constitution means?
I don't think their visions were as diverse as you hold them out to be. Specifically on the enumerated powers issue, which Founder claimed that the Constitution gave the Federal government unlimited power?
 
1: One could argue that the purpose of regulating commerce has the end intent of promoting commerce. However, it depends on what actions are taken to "promote" commerce. Regulations that assure ease of transportation, smoothing any conflict between state regulations on certain types of products, etc. are most assuredly the eenumerated perview of Congress, all of which, if done correctly, would have the net effect of promoting commerce.

However, handing out tax breaks, grants, etc. to preferred corporations is NOT a valid extension of regulating commerce.


2. No. That authority was reserved to the states. The general welfare clause that is often pointed at in article 1, section 8 refers to the general welfare of the United States - that is, the union as a whole. This is a necessary and important, though often misunderstood and misused distinction. The Constitution is very consistent in that when the writers mean the people of the United States, they say "the people"; when it is the individual states they use "the states" and when they mean the nation as a whole, the say "The United States.

3. The Constitution itself is the end result of the individual and collective intent of the people who wrote it, promoted it, and exercised its ratification. Every individual's intent is involved. There were three main focuses in writing this Constitution. The first was to replace the central government of the Articles of Confederation, which were not working, with a stronger federal government. The second focus was to assure the authority of the individual states was not usurped by the new federal government. And the third, led by the anti-federalists, was to assure federal authority could not be used to usurp individual liberty. The result is a collective effort of these men and their ideals. No one ideal or original intent holds sway above the others because the resulting document, the Constitution itself, holds the compromises worked out between the varying philosophies.

There was a general agreement, even among the more staunch federalists such as George Washington, that the overall purpose of the Constitution was to define the role of the federal government. They understood the need to define it, so that it could not grow, without the consent of the people, beyond its defined powers. Nowhere will you find any of the writers, delegates, state legislatures that enabled it ratification, etc. support for the idea that the federal government has the authority to interpret its own limits. Anyone with that ideal would have fought against the Constitution since it's very nature is to define and limit governmental authority. That is why the original, unamended constitution is filled with those things government is forbidden to do. Then, to make certain it was understood that what the constitution says government can do is ALL the government can do, they added the 10th Amendment.
 
Why? If the Founding Fathers could not present a consistent idea of what the Constitution's original intent is, how could the public at large possiblly have any clue? If the Founding Fathers didn't agree on what the Constitution means, how could the American People know with certainty what the Constitution means?

There were numerous publications on the final constitution that explained what the constitution meant so that the people knew what they were ratifying. To my knowledge, not one of those publications was ever challenged by the framers.
 
And everyone else here who believe in original intent:

I want a point blank answer- does original intent give the Congress any role in promoting commerce, literature or science? Does original intent give the Congress any role in public education? Does any given Founding Father’s original intent take precedence over any other’s? If you had to choose, whose original intent is the most important- Madison’s? Hamilton’s? Washington’s? Or did all 3 have the same original intent?

Article 1 Section 8, regarding science. No to education, though state constitutions do. Commerce clause.

Intent does not mean no applications of elastic clause.
 
I don't think their visions were as diverse as you hold them out to be. Specifically on the enumerated powers issue, which Founder claimed that the Constitution gave the Federal government unlimited power?

When have I ever claimed that any Founding Father ever said the Constitution gives the federal governmnet unlimited power? All I have ever said is that the Constittuon was designed to be a living document and thus the federal government has more constitutional power than you want to accept.
 
1: One could argue that the purpose of regulating commerce has the end intent of promoting commerce. However, it depends on what actions are taken to "promote" commerce.

In other words you have to interpret the meaning of the Constitution- which means there is no original intent because the meaning of the Constitution can change with the times.

2. No. That authority was reserved to the states. The general welfare clause that is often pointed at in article 1, section 8 refers to the general welfare of the United States - that is, the union as a whole.

Just how do you tend to the general welfare of the whole Union if you don't concern yourself with the welfare of that Union's component parts?

3. The Constitution itself is the end result of the individual and collective intent of the people who wrote it, promoted it, and exercised its ratification. Every individual's intent is involved.

And they don't all agree. Randolph proposed the Virginia Plan at the Convention, but then refused to sign the document that was based mostly on the Virginia Plan and then refused to support ratification only to serve in Washington's cabinet thereby helping to put into operation what he had previously opposed.
 
When have I ever claimed that any Founding Father ever said the Constitution gives the federal governmnet unlimited power? All I have ever said is that the Constittuon was designed to be a living document and thus the federal government has more constitutional power than you want to accept.

you would be wrong. read my signature again. The US Constitution is a legal binding document that creates and limits the federal government. Any other interpretation is not only ludicrous, but undermines the limited government principle that Madison and others intended.
 
In other words you have to interpret the meaning of the Constitution- which means there is no original intent because the meaning of the Constitution can change with the times.
Wrong again.

It means that when the authority to regulate commerce is properly exercised, the net effect is to promote commerce. When it is improperly exercised (as has been shown in several instances these past several decades), it has a net negative effect on commerce.

And there was and is original intent to the Constitution whether you agree with that original intent or not. Claiming otherwise is utter stupidity.


Just how do you tend to the general welfare of the whole Union if you don't concern yourself with the welfare of that Union's component parts?
One could compare it to a chain of command. The federal government's job is to make sure the union of the component parts functions as it should, while the state and local governments take care of the component parts. And BOTH are forbidden to interfere with the liberties of the individual person.


And they don't all agree. Randolph proposed the Virginia Plan at the Convention, but then refused to sign the document that was based mostly on the Virginia Plan and then refused to support ratification only to serve in Washington's cabinet thereby helping to put into operation what he had previously opposed.
Yes, and do you know WHY Randolph opposed it? Because he felt it gave TOO MUCH authority to the federal government. You really picked a poor example of opposition considering you support an interpretation that allows even greater federal authority. In fact, when it came to ratifying the Constitution, the ONLY opposition came from those who opposed the level of federal authority the Constitution grants, even under the strict literal interpretation of the time it was written.

The Constitution is the net result of ALL the opinions of the delegates and other speakers. It is called COMPROMISE. In fact on of the results - a 2 chamber congress - is still referred to as the GREAT COMPROMISE.

Some peoples ideas did not get included. Others' ideas got included, but were modified. Other people got their way in Article 1, but not in Article 2. Not all fully agreed with the end result. However, that does not in any way diminish the end result. Nor does it CHANGE the fact that the end result was intended, primarily, to be a specifically designed limit on the authority of government; that it has, built in, a specifically defined mechanism for allowing those changes deemed necessary; and that even the foremost proponents of the federal government the Constitution created believed that allowing the government to interpret it for their own purposes was the wrong way to go.
 
Washington's effective promotion of the subsidization of education in Seminaries has overcome his ability to think.

Education is NOT one of the powers of the Federal government. While they may give them money, attaching strings to it in order to take control is an usurpation of powers not granted to the Feds, and yes I know that GWB was trying to do just that, hence my vote did not go to him in 2004.

George Washington did not promote the wresting of the control from the local governments, he simply promoted giving them money as educated citizenry is a boon to a Democracy.
 
Wrong again.

It means that when the authority to regulate commerce is properly exercised,

And how do you know when the authority to regulate commerce is properly exercised if you don't interpret what the Constitution means? What is proper regulation under one set of circumstances may not be proper under another.

You original intentists have reached the point where you are being argued in circles; my work on the subject is done.
 
Washington's effective promotion of the subsidization of education in Seminaries has overcome his ability to think.

Education is NOT one of the powers of the Federal government.

Founding Father George Washington and Founding Father James Madison both said it is. Get over it.
 
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