The civil war, and Ron Paul

Cypress

Well-known member
For those who might have missed Ron Paul on Meet the Press, Paul suggested that Lincoln made a mistake, and was wrong to go to war in 1861:

MR. RUSSERT: I was intrigued by your comments about Abe Lincoln. “According to Paul, Abe Lincoln should never have gone to war; there were better ways of getting rid of slavery.”

REP. PAUL: Absolutely. Six hundred thousand Americans died in a senseless civil war. No, he shouldn’t have gone, gone to war. He did this just to enhance and get rid of the original intent of the republic. I mean, it was the–that iron, iron fist..

MR. RUSSERT: We’d still have slavery.

REP. PAUL: Oh, come on, Tim. Slavery was phased out in every other country of the world. And the way I’m advising that it should have been done is do like the British empire did. You, you buy the slaves and release them. How much would that cost compared to killing 600,000 Americans and where it lingered for 100 years? I mean, the hatred and all that existed. So every other major country in the world got rid of slavery without a civil war. I mean, that doesn’t sound too radical to me. That sounds like a pretty reasonable approach.

So, basically, Linclon was a power hungry, iron fisted man, who went to war to get rid of the republic.

There is so much neo-confederate historical revisionism in this interview, that anybody who passed a credible high school american history class should be incredulous at his answer.

One. Linclon went to war to preserve the union, and put down an insurrection. Not to "get rid" of the republic. The issue of slavery in the south was not even on the table, for the first two years of the war. Period.

Two. The south STARTED the civil war. Lincoln didn't start it. Confederate artillery bombarded american soldiers at Fort Sumpter. It was only then that Lincoln declared a state of insurrection, and called for troops to put it down. What was Linclon supposed to do? Ignore the attack on american troops, and the insurrection?

Three. Lincoln's 1860 campaign was NOT to eliminate slavery in the south. It was to keep slavery from expanding to new states. Period. Linclon's campaign position on slavery and emancipation was lukewarm at best, at that time. It was certainly not a direct assualt on the south's own institutions of slavery. He never suggested that the institution of slavery be dismantled or pruned back in the south...only, that it was not spread to other states.

Four. Does anyone think the Civil War was a "senseless" war? It was tragic, bloody, and indeed sad. But senseless? What is he talking about? Senseless is not a word I've ever heard anyone use to describe the civil war. At a minimum, the war saved the republic, and ultimately ended slavery if not outright segregation and discrimination. What was the alternative? To allow the United States to break apart, and allow slavery to continue on for at least decades more?

South Carolina and other states succeeded before Lincoln even took office. Indeed, at least seven southern states suceeded before Lincoln even took the oath of office. There was no legitimate attempt at polical comprimise by the south. Lincoln never even suggested emancipating the blacks in the south in those years. So for all this Ron Paul talk about using the art of political compromise to end slavery, rather than fight a war, does it look like the south was ready to compromise at all? I think not. How long would the south have taken to free slaves all on their own? Twenty years? Fifty years? That's at least or, or more, generations of americans held in bondage.



Now, as for Ron Paul theory of gradual emancipation through the art of political compromise and legislation, here is his position on the Civil Rights Act...he opposses it to this day:

MR. RUSSERT: You would vote against the Civil Rights Act if, if it was today?

REP. PAUL: If it were written the same way, where the federal government’s taken over property–has nothing to do with race relations. It just happens, Tim, that I get more support from black people today than any other Republican candidate, according to some statistics. And I have a great appeal to people who care about personal liberties and to those individuals who would like to get us out of wars. So it has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with the Constitution and private property rights.

So, he opposes the Civil Rights Act, even to this day. The CRA was the very act of political compromise and legistlation, a tactic he suggested should be used with respect to address slavery and equal rights. Heads I win, tails you lose.
 
I disagree that the South started the War. Lincoln could have chosen to respect the right of a state to secede. I'm not saying he made the wrong choice; historically the unity of the United States has been an unquestionable advantage, but he could have easily avoided the War.
 
How so?

I disagree that the South started the War. Lincoln could have chosen to respect the right of a state to secede. I'm not saying he made the wrong choice; historically the unity of the United States has been an unquestionable advantage, but he could have easily avoided the War.


This was a text book...catch 22...damned if you do damned if ya don't...if you were Lincoln...How would you have handled the dissenters?(with big guns)
 
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I disagree that the South started the War. Lincoln could have chosen to respect the right of a state to secede. I'm not saying he made the wrong choice; historically the unity of the United States has been an unquestionable advantage, but he could have easily avoided the War.


This was a text book...catch 22...damned if you do damned if ya don't...if you were Lincoln...How would you have handled the dissenters?(with big guns)

It's a tough choice. Few people in history have been confronted by such a decision. History has proven he made an acceptable if not advantageous choice. That is undisputable. Intellectual curiosity, however, makes me wonder about what an independent South might have looked like. I honestly do not believe they would have kept a slave-based economy for too much longer anyway.

Europe relied on India as a source for cotton, and Southerners would have had to develop some level of industry. A purely agrarian, slave-based economy could not have lasted far, if at all, into the 20th century.
 
But you said...

It's a tough choice. Few people in history have been confronted by such a decision. History has proven he made an acceptable if not advantageous choice. That is undisputable. Intellectual curiosity, however, makes me wonder about what an independent South might have looked like. I honestly do not believe they would have kept a slave-based economy for too much longer anyway.

Europe relied on India as a source for cotton, and Southerners would have had to develop some level of industry. A purely agrarian, slave-based economy could not have lasted far, if at all, into the 20th century.



'he could have easily avoided the war'...please explain...Ms.Guru?
 
Of course it was easy to avoid. The South would not have attacked the much stronger North on its own. Fort Sumter was not a declaration of war. By the Confederate view, it was an attempt to remove foreign troops from their country. Diplomacy was initially tried, and the Union troops surrendered after a bombardment.

Like I said, Lincoln could have easily avoided war by choosing to ignore the incident at Sumter and recognizing the Confederacy. He chose not to do so, and while it was probably the better choice it was avoidable.
 
Hurry up young libo..........

It has been a exhuasting Christmas Holiday...I'm tired and want to soak in a hot bath...us G/Pas can only take so much Holiday fever...please explain your comments about Lincoln and how he could have avoided the Civil War...as it also relates to present day problemos...I would really-really like to see how the Lib's could have avoided it then as now!:rolleyes:


Your comment above did not cut it!
 
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Man you really want to pick a fight about something.

Chill out. Merry Christmas. There is no more Confederacy. This is nothing to get into it about.
 
Nope...just debateing your simplicity..........

Man you really want to pick a fight about something.

Chill out. Merry Christmas. There is no more Confederacy. This is nothing to get into it about.


as todays war is yesterdays war also...nothing changes in the 'Big Picture' The Confederacy of today is 'Islam against the West'...think before you speak again!:rolleyes:
 
Night All...........

Young Libo...stepped in doodo once again..can't explain the comments as predicted...must hit a nice Hot Bath...Merry Christmas and hopefully a 'Happy New Year 'too!:)
 
You're totally right Cypress. The civil war I think was a necessary event even though so many people had to die. It was state rights vs federal government. Someone fell asleep during this part of history class. :rolleyes:
 
So can you point to me in the Constitution where it said a state could suceede after joining the union?

I disagree that the South started the War. Lincoln could have chosen to respect the right of a state to secede. I'm not saying he made the wrong choice; historically the unity of the United States has been an unquestionable advantage, but he could have easily avoided the War.
 
Of course it was easy to avoid. The South would not have attacked the much stronger North on its own. Fort Sumter was not a declaration of war. By the Confederate view, it was an attempt to remove foreign troops from their country. Diplomacy was initially tried, and the Union troops surrendered after a bombardment.

Like I said, Lincoln could have easily avoided war by choosing to ignore the incident at Sumter and recognizing the Confederacy. He chose not to do so, and while it was probably the better choice it was avoidable.

Actually they surrendered after a siege. They were out of ammo and food.
 
Cypress, you're full of shit.

The Civil War was a cost of 600,000 human lives. And it was not entirely about slavery. I find it strange that the very people who so claim to be anti war, feel that war is necessary to resolve horrible social problems.

War is not necessary, war is not someting that solves even the worst of social problems. Cheer the Civil War Cypress! Cheer every war in the world because they're all, every single one of them, sold on benevolence, and guess what? Wars are actually waged on bullshit.

Are you even familiar with the Civil War? Do you even have any freaking clue about the pretext for it? It was not about the North fighting to "free the slaves", or the south fighting to "keep the slaves". Slavery was a side issue, and in the end, much like the Declaration of Independence, the Emancipation Proclimation put an end game to the war, but its not what it was about.

Read about the Civil War pal. It was the ugliest, most costly war in the history of the US, in terms of lives lost. It was brutal, and evil, and it was unnecessary.

Do you agree with Sherman's tactics? Is it Macheavalian shit? Do the ends justify the means? What about Forrest?

War is good on your terms, right? The Civil war was the most bloody, ugly conflict in our history Cypress, it left more American dead than any other war in history. And slavery was abolished through its actions, but it didn't require the bloodbath to do it any more than any other country that had it.

War is ugly, war kills innocent and soldier alike, war divides people, war crushes cities and towns, war is almost never necessary, and the civil war didn't need to happen.
 
I don't know, but it makes me sick the way liberals support Shermans tactics. In the modern world Sherman would be sent to the Hague and executed as the war criminal scum he is. There were Nazi's who did less than Sherman did and were executed. We do not sink to the level of barbarians, nor should we ever, for any reason, ever, period, at all.
 
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I don't know, but it makes me sick the way liberals support Shermans tactics. In the modern world Sherman would be sent to the Hague and executed as the war criminal scum he is. There were Nazi's who did less than Sherman did and were executed. We do not sink to the level of barbarians, nor should we ever.

He got the war to end. There are times to do such, MacArthur agreed. I doubt we'll see this again for along while.
 
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