The monster of Monticello

The Dude

Banned
THOMAS JEFFERSON is in the news again, nearly 200 years after his death — alongside a high-profile biography by the journalist Jon Meacham comes a damning portrait of the third president by the independent scholar Henry Wiencek.

We are endlessly fascinated with Jefferson, in part because we seem unable to reconcile the rhetoric of liberty in his writing with the reality of his slave owning and his lifetime support for slavery. Time and again, we play down the latter in favor of the former, or write off the paradox as somehow indicative of his complex depths.

Neither Mr. Meacham, who mostly ignores Jefferson’s slave ownership, nor Mr. Wiencek, who sees him as a sort of fallen angel who comes to slavery only after discovering how profitable it could be, seem willing to confront the ugly truth: the third president was a creepy, brutal hypocrite.

Contrary to Mr. Wiencek’s depiction, Jefferson was always deeply committed to slavery, and even more deeply hostile to the welfare of blacks, slave or free. His proslavery views were shaped not only by money and status but also by his deeply racist views, which he tried to justify through pseudoscience.

There is, it is true, a compelling paradox about Jefferson: when he wrote the Declaration of Independence, announcing the “self-evident” truth that all men are “created equal,” he owned some 175 slaves. Too often, scholars and readers use those facts as a crutch, to write off Jefferson’s inconvenient views as products of the time and the complexities of the human condition.

But while many of his contemporaries, including George Washington, freed their slaves during and after the revolution — inspired, perhaps, by the words of the Declaration — Jefferson did not. Over the subsequent 50 years, a period of extraordinary public service, Jefferson remained the master of Monticello, and a buyer and seller of human beings.

Rather than encouraging his countrymen to liberate their slaves, he opposed both private manumission and public emancipation. Even at his death, Jefferson failed to fulfill the promise of his rhetoric: his will emancipated only five slaves, all relatives of his mistress Sally Hemings, and condemned nearly 200 others to the auction block. Even Hemings remained a slave, though her children by Jefferson went free.

Nor was Jefferson a particularly kind master. He sometimes punished slaves by selling them away from their families and friends, a retaliation that was incomprehensibly cruel even at the time. A proponent of humane criminal codes for whites, he advocated harsh, almost barbaric, punishments for slaves and free blacks. Known for expansive views of citizenship, he proposed legislation to make emancipated blacks “outlaws” in America, the land of their birth. Opposed to the idea of royal or noble blood, he proposed expelling from Virginia the children of white women and black men.

Jefferson also dodged opportunities to undermine slavery or promote racial equality. As a state legislator he blocked consideration of a law that might have eventually ended slavery in the state.

As president he acquired the Louisiana Territory but did nothing to stop the spread of slavery into that vast “empire of liberty.” Jefferson told his neighbor Edward Coles not to emancipate his own slaves, because free blacks were “pests in society” who were “as incapable as children of taking care of themselves.” And while he wrote a friend that he sold slaves only as punishment or to unite families, he sold at least 85 humans in a 10-year period to raise cash to buy wine, art and other luxury goods.

Destroying families didn’t bother Jefferson, because he believed blacks lacked basic human emotions. “Their griefs are transient,” he wrote, and their love lacked “a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation.”

Jefferson claimed he had “never seen an elementary trait of painting or sculpture” or poetry among blacks and argued that blacks’ ability to “reason” was “much inferior” to whites’, while “in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.” He conceded that blacks were brave, but this was because of “a want of fore-thought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present.”

A scientist, Jefferson nevertheless speculated that blackness might come “from the color of the blood” and concluded that blacks were “inferior to the whites in the endowments of body and mind.”

Jefferson did worry about the future of slavery, but not out of moral qualms. After reading about the slave revolts in Haiti, Jefferson wrote to a friend that “if something is not done and soon done, we shall be the murderers of our own children.” But he never said what that “something” should be.

In 1820 Jefferson was shocked by the heated arguments over slavery during the debate over the Missouri Compromise. He believed that by opposing the spread of slavery in the West, the children of the revolution were about to “perpetrate” an “act of suicide on themselves, and of treason against the hopes of the world.”

If there was “treason against the hopes of the world,” it was perpetrated by the founding generation, which failed to place the nation on the road to liberty for all. No one bore a greater responsibility for that failure than the master of Monticello.

Paul Finkelman, a visiting professor in legal history at Duke Law School, is a professor at Albany Law School and the author of “Slavery and the Founders: Race and Liberty in the Age of Jefferson.”
 
:rofl2:

I laugh every time I read that these so called experts on history are shocked that people owned slaves during that time. They all did it, if I was born during that time frame, I would be one mean ass motherfucking slave owner as well.
:whip:
 
:rofl2:

I laugh every time I read that these so called experts on history are shocked that people owned slaves during that time. They all did it, if I was born during that time frame, I would be one mean ass motherfucking slave owner as well.
:whip:

You lowlife bitch. As if that excuses it all. You might have very well been. And if I had been as well, and under your auspices, one fine morning, they would have found you dead, from poisoning, or a behind a swift knife to the throat. Or sucking your dick, which I would have promptly bitten off.
 
I'm sick and tired of the founders being idolized.
They ditched the king for financial gain, killed their neighbors for not being terrorist!
Most were racist assholes
 
For starters, Henry Wiencek is a journalist. His academic pedigree is in Russian Literature and Literary Theory. And by the definition of a scholar, he is not a scholar in either of these. Not only has Wiencek not done advanced studies, post doctorate studies, or any other academic studies in Jefferson or colonial era studies, he has non studied in Jefferson or colonial history. He is a journalist.

Every legitimate Jefferson scholar, every history scholar, and Monticello historian have labeled this book what it is: nothing but unsubstantiated fabrication. There are no new documents, letters, writings, witness accounts, etc. This windbag of a journalist only took existing records and decided to add his own meaning to them.

Every actual scholar that has read Master of the Mountain has scorched Wiencek for his misrepresentation of history to make a buck. Each paragraph in this post can be surgically taken apart as either a blatant misrepresentation or misrepresentation by omission.
 
This message is hidden because Asa is on your ignore list.

Prattle on. No one is paying you attention. Least of all, me. LOL
 
For one, Wiencek may not have a degree, but he is an independent scholar. Independent scholars have made numerous important contributions to the academic world, and it's annoying to merely hear them dismissed by mentioning their day job (this was done in my linguistic class to discredit Benjamin Lee Whorf's Whorf-Sapir hypothesis - the hypothesis was indeed bad, but it was basically a footnote in his overall thought, and he was a great thinker who made many more great contributions to linguistics; the fact that he was trained as a fire prevention engineer, and otherwise learned all of his linguistic knowledge himself, makes him more, not less, impressive).

Historians are mostly pissed at Wiencek for not being very respectful to them in his endnotes and not giving the proper amount of credit. They mostly don't actually disagree with his interpretation, they merely find fault with him for not giving them credit for it, and claiming that academic historians have been painting Jefferson as a kindly slavemaster. It's a battle of ego, typical of academics, not any problem with the actual material. Jefferson was a cruel and evil individual, who I hope is burning in hell right now.
 
I'm sick and tired of the founders being idolized.
They ditched the king for financial gain, killed their neighbors for not being terrorist!
Most were racist assholes

This is not true of Alexander Hamilton. He was always fiercely anti-slavery. That's why he's my favorite founding father.
 
For one, Wiencek may not have a degree, but he is an independent scholar. Independent scholars have made numerous important contributions to the academic world, and it's annoying to merely hear them dismissed by mentioning their day job (this was done in my linguistic class to discredit Benjamin Lee Whorf's Whorf-Sapir hypothesis - the hypothesis was indeed bad, but it was basically a footnote in his overall thought, and he was a great thinker who made many more great contributions to linguistics; the fact that he was trained as a fire prevention engineer, and otherwise learned all of his linguistic knowledge himself, makes him more, not less, impressive).

Historians are mostly pissed at Wiencek for not being very respectful to them in his endnotes and not giving the proper amount of credit. They mostly don't actually disagree with his interpretation, they merely find fault with him for not giving them credit for it, and claiming that academic historians have been painting Jefferson as a kindly slavemaster. It's a battle of ego, typical of academics, not any problem with the actual material. Jefferson was a cruel and evil individual, who I hope is burning in hell right now.

Legitimate scholars have a problem with Wiencek because he is not a scholar, but a journalist, and he discovered nothing new, no new documents, testimony, letters, etc. What he did was take the work by legitimate scholars and assign his own meaning to what they discovered in their scholarly work. That does not a scholar make, and in doing so, he was caught in myriad lies.

They all disagreed with his interpretation.
 
You lowlife bitch. As if that excuses it all. You might have very well been. And if I had been as well, and under your auspices, one fine morning, they would have found you dead, from poisoning, or a behind a swift knife to the throat. Or sucking your dick, which I would have promptly bitten off.

:rofl2:

You would have been in chains, and never allowed within 100 feet of your master stormx. And if you are one of those effeminate slaves, I would never have bought you.
 
Legitimate scholars have a problem with Wiencek because he is not a scholar, but a journalist, and he discovered nothing new, no new documents, testimony, letters, etc. What he did was take the work by legitimate scholars and assign his own meaning to what they discovered in their scholarly work. That does not a scholar make, and in doing so, he was caught in myriad lies.

They all disagreed with his interpretation.

Not really, they disagreed with him taking a monstrous interpretation of Jefferson and attributing it to himself rather than them.
 
:rofl2:

You would have been in chains, and never allowed within 100 feet of your master stormx. And if you are one of those effeminate slaves, I would never have bought you.

I would have fled the plantation I was on, sought you out, and made quick work of you, girlfriend.
And we're talking hypothetically. We're here now, and you have zero power. Capice?
 
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Actually, contrary to the beliefs and propaganda of the Jefferson haters of the world Jefferson did not invent or create slavery in America Jefferson like every other southerner including the blacks in the south was born into the tradition of slavery and the notion that blacks and native Americans were less than human and women were property.

If you’re schooled in Jefferson’s writings it’s easily noticed his mental struggles with the tradition of slavery which he certainly did attempt to justify it scientifically but never to his complete satisfaction. Of course he was economically biased favorable to slavery, he was human and surely not a saint and economically harnessed himself to slavery.

Jefferson also violated the Constitution with the purchase of the Louisiana Territory without a constitutional amendment and he was well aware of his constitutional violation.

Jefferson unlike all modern leftist, socialist, communist and Democrats was not perfect and had several flaws like all humans. Of course we know that modern leftist, socialist, communist and Democrats are all above human, right?
 
:rofl2:

I laugh every time I read that these so called experts on history are shocked that people owned slaves during that time. They all did it, if I was born during that time frame, I would be one mean ass motherfucking slave owner as well.
:whip:


Very very few did: they were the equivalent of big capitalists convincing the mugs that they (the mugs) pay all the taxes now. Slaves cost money, and like big business it was inherited under a caste system.
 
Actually, contrary to the beliefs and propaganda of the Jefferson haters of the world Jefferson did not invent or create slavery in America Jefferson like every other southerner including the blacks in the south was born into the tradition of slavery and the notion that blacks and native Americans were less than human and women were property.

If you’re schooled in Jefferson’s writings it’s easily noticed his mental struggles with the tradition of slavery which he certainly did attempt to justify it scientifically but never to his complete satisfaction. Of course he was economically biased favorable to slavery, he was human and surely not a saint and economically harnessed himself to slavery.

Jefferson also violated the Constitution with the purchase of the Louisiana Territory without a constitutional amendment and he was well aware of his constitutional violation.

Jefferson unlike all modern leftist, socialist, communist and Democrats was not perfect and had several flaws like all humans. Of course we know that modern leftist, socialist, communist and Democrats are all above human, right?

He certainly seems to have overcome his racism, like so many of these swine, when it came to sex! :)
 
This is not true of Alexander Hamilton. He was always fiercely anti-slavery. That's why he's my favorite founding father.

To make this statement it will be imperative to address Hamilton's marriage to Elizabeth Schuyler, and his involvement of selling slaves for profit for the Schuyler family. And his hunting down runaway slaves for the Schuyler family. Then you would need weigh Hamilton's actions against Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration of Independence regarding slavery. And all of Jefferson's writings on slavery. Also thrown into the mix you will need Virginia's laws on freeing slaves, and having a chattel on slaves that would prevent someone from selling their slaves without the cash to pay off the chattel.
 
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