The universe requires a Creator

G

Grugore

Verified User
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.
 
Grugore said:
Why do I say this? For several reason, but the main one is that nothing physical can create itself. Therefore, the universe had a Creator. In order to refute this, you must first give an example of something creating itself. It's a scientific impossibility.
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Before anyone does anything...you have to prove "the universe" IS a creation.

Perhaps it is not. Perhaps it has ALWAYS existed...in various forms.

If it was NOT a creation (one possible thing)...then it doesn't need a creator.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Before anyone does anything...you have to prove "the universe" IS a creation.

Perhaps it is not. Perhaps it has ALWAYS existed...in various forms.

If it was NOT a creation (one possible thing)...then it doesn't need a creator.
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Nothing physical can be eternal. The universe had a beginning. Your fantasy does not in any way change that.
 
Grugore said:
Nothing physical can be eternal.
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How do you know that? Are you a god?

Anyway...I think that is just a blind guess...which you need in order to make the assertion of your tread title.

The universe had a beginning.
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Interesting blind guess you are making there, Grug. Thank you for sharing it.

You may even be correct. But then again, you might be wrong.

Care to tell us how you KNOW the universe (THE UNIVERSE) had a beginning?

Your fantasy does not in any way change that.
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What fantasy?
 
Frank Apisa said:
How do you know that? Are you a god?

Anyway...I think that is just a blind guess...which you need in order to make the assertion of your tread title.



Interesting blind guess you are making there, Grug. Thank you for sharing it.

You may even be correct. But then again, you might be wrong.

Care to tell us how you KNOW the universe (THE UNIVERSE) had a beginning?



What fantasy?
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Let me know when you're ready to talk sense, and I'll get back to you.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Perhaps it is not. Perhaps it has ALWAYS existed...in various forms.
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sorry, but science says no........the inception of THIS universe is called the Big Bang......if there is some pre-existing universe from which our matter/energy/etc came it would still not be THIS universe.......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
sorry, but science says no........the inception of THIS universe is called the Big Bang......if there is some pre-existing universe from which our matter/energy/etc came it would still not be THIS universe.......
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But...but...but....

...he was talking about "THE" universe...not "this" universe.

If you are talking about this thing we humans call "the universe"...I would agree that scientists probably have it right that it came into existence via the Big Bang.

But where did the ingredients from the Big Bang come from?

Did they always exist...or did a god "create" them.

I DO NOT KNOW.

I suspect you and that other guy do not know either.

I acknowledge that I do not know.

And you?
 
PostmodernProphet said:
sorry, but science says no........the inception of THIS universe is called the Big Bang......if there is some pre-existing universe from which our matter/energy/etc came it would still not be THIS universe.......
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There is also the fact that any fictional pre universe would have to come from somewhere. The simple fact is that everything physical had a beginning. Even energy. I know, I know. Scientists tell us that energy has always existed. How could they possibly know this? They can't. They say it has always existed because it cannot be created or destroyed...by man. Doesn't mean that someone or something greater than man couldn't create it. I also find it funny that the same people who say energy is eternal, dismiss the idea of an eternal God.
 
Grugore said:
There is also the fact that any fictional pre universe would have to come from somewhere. The simple fact is that everything physical had a beginning. Even energy. I know, I know. Scientists tell us that energy has always existed. How could they possibly know this? They can't. They say it has always existed because it cannot be created or destroyed...by man. Doesn't mean that someone or something greater than man couldn't create it. I also find it funny that the same people who say energy is eternal, dismiss the idea of an eternal God.
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Wow...something I can almost agree on with this guy.

Anyway...I find it funny that the same people who say there is an eternal god...dismiss the idea of existence itself and everything in it...being eternal.

They make no sense at all.
 
Frank Apisa said:
But...but...but....

...he was talking about "THE" universe...not "this" universe.
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I'm fairly certain he's discussing the one he and I are standing in........you I'm not so sure about......

But where did the ingredients from the Big Bang come from?
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either they were created or they came from another universe......either way, THIS universe had a beginning......

I DO NOT KNOW.
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you know they did not exist in this universe.....
 
Frank Apisa said:
dismiss the idea of existence itself and everything in it...being eternal. They make no sense at all.
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no....science states that the universe had a beginning......by definition, that which has a beginning is not eternal.......it is your argument that makes no sense........even if the matter was converted from some other dimension/universe it had an end there and a beginning here........that is contrary to the definition of "eternal"
 
PostmodernProphet said:
I'm fairly certain he's discussing the one he and I are standing in........you I'm not so sure about......
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He spoke about "the" universe. You were talking about "this" universe.

either they were created or they came from another universe......either way, THIS universe had a beginning......
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This thing we humans call the universe almost certainly had a beginning...although the jury is still out about the ingredients that were already here in order for "what we humans call the universe" to "begin.". Chances are "begin" is used in this part of the conversation in quite a different way than "begin" often is used. We are talking about that "special kind of nothing" (which is actually something) that physicists speak of.

We are not discussing that. This guy is saying that there has to be a god...because "this" is a creation. We do not know if it is a "creation" or not. Even if it came into existence from "that special kind of nothing"...it DOES NOT MEAN IT IS A CREATION.

He is asserting things which he can establish logically.

He asserting there is a god (my guess he is asserting the god is HIS god); he is asserting that the universe is a creation (it may not be).


you know they did not exist in this universe.....
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No I do not...and neither do you. Albert Einstein did not know...Stephen Hawking does not know.

So...where are you?
 
The human mind cannot truly accept that anything can be endless. Everything we know has a beginning and an end. I know space is endless but I still have to wonder if it has an end.
 
Frank Apisa said:
He spoke about "the" universe. You were talking about "this" universe.
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we are all talking about the same universe....if you don't choose to engage in the discussion, you are free to stop.....

This thing we humans call the universe almost certainly had a beginning..
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thank you for acknowledging the truth.....

.although the jury is still out about the ingredients that were already here in order for "what we humans call the universe" to "begin."
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if all the ingredients were here and it did not begin, then the universe would require a "cause"


Chances are "begin" is used in this part of the conversation in quite a different way than "begin" often is used.
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no.......we are talking about inception.......you can call it the Big Bang, you can call it "Let there be....." in Hebrew........you can even call them farts if you want to.........but beginning is beginning...

We are not discussing that.
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if you don't want to discuss that you can go somewhere else and discuss what you want to discuss.......we are talking about "the creation of the universe".....

the beginning........he believes that it was created by God, some argue that it was created by random shit happening randomly, you believe some weird shit that you pretend isn't belief.......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
we are all talking about the same universe....if you don't choose to engage in the discussion, you are free to stop.....


thank you for acknowledging the truth.....



if all the ingredients were here and it did not begin, then the universe would require a "cause"



no.......we are talking about inception.......you can call it the Big Bang, you can call it "Let there be....." in Hebrew........you can even call them farts if you want to.........but beginning is beginning...



if you don't want to discuss that you can go somewhere else and discuss what you want to discuss.......we are talking about "the creation of the universe".....

the beginning........he believes that it was created by God, some argue that it was created by random shit happening randomly, you believe some weird shit that you pretend isn't belief.......
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I do not know if the universe is a creation or not.

YOU do not know either. The only significant difference between us on that issue is that I have the integrity and honesty to acknowledge that I do not know...while you are lacking both.

I AM SAYING THAT I DO NOT KNOW...not that crap that you were trying to sell in your remarks up above.

So...you're up at bat again.

MY bet: You will whiff again.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
then why are you wasting our time discussing it?......
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I can't waste YOUR time, PP...you are wasting it...if it is being wasted. (You are not very good at this, are you.)

...all your arguments boil down to "since I don't believe you, you are wrong"........
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To anyone who can read...and who has a modicum of intelligence...my arguments boil down to "I do not know if the universe...if existence...IS A CREATION OR NOT.


You are having trouble with that.

Lemme help you: YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THE UNIVERSE IS A CREATION OR NOT EITHER.

Now...all you have to do is to develop the integrity and honesty to acknowledge that.

(Okay...that last part WILL be a tough assignment for you. But work on it. Who knows...maybe you can pull it off.)
 
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