The US is insolvent !

There is simply no way for national bills to be paid under current levels of taxation and promised benefits.

Sure there is! The same way we've done it since FDR! Print more money! I do understand what you are saying here (except for the slap at conservatives), we do need to take a realistic look at what we are doing with our money.

You mentioned tax when making a point about revenue, along with promised benefits. I would say the level of promised benefits is the real problem, not taxation. We could adopt a 75% tax rate, and it would not pay for what we have on our plate already, but the real problem is politicians who would spend any windfall before we could pay off the debt. Subsequently, taxation directly relates to revenue, the higher the tax rate, the less revenue ultimately generated. This is a consideration most pinheads aren't smart enough to understand, but it's been proven over and over again. You simply can't tax your way out of debt. It sounds like you could, and if all things were static, it would certainly work that way... more tax = more revenue... But, this assumes a static condition, that all people who are being taxed at a higher rate, are just going to pay the higher rate and continue making the money they made under the lower rate. This only happens in the middle class, where rate increases are fairly negligible, not with the uber-rich. To them, a increase of just a few percent, means millions or billions of lost dollars. These people didn't get to be rich by being unconcerned with the loss of millions or billions.

Raise the tax rates on these folks, and suddenly a company that made $30 million in profit last year, is showing a loss this year. Money that would have been invested in new equipment, new employees, raises, etc... all gets shoveled off into a foreign investment or trust. In the end, Uncle Sam sees less of this money.

So, you have a complicated problem here, you simply can't look at it from a stupid perspective and be able to figure out a solution that works. While you are trying to calculate the point of diminishing returns on your revenue, you still have the 800 lb. gorilla on your shoulders, of the promised benefits you can't sustain. The problem is not taxation, it is the benefits promised.

There are only two solutions to this problem, we either provide them and absorb the cost, increasing our debt, or we reduce them and modify them through reforms, increasing the discontent and whining from the left, and those who would lose the promised benefits. Since they vote, this is a problem as well.

I have always supported a combination of several ideas, as opposed to the simplistic remedy of either raising taxes or cutting benefits. Start with adjusting the level at which Americans aren't required to pay tax... let the lower to lower middle class pay some portion of the bill. This doesn't have to be a large amount, anything greater than zero is going to yield positive revenue. This sounds greedy, but from an economics standpoint, it is well-reasoned. The super-wealthy don't need to make money, they are easily motivated to not make money, if the tax rates are too high. Middle class people simply have to make money to live, they don't have the luxury of not making money to avoid taxation, as the rich have. So, the most effective taxation, in terms of real revenue, is always going to be on the middle class.

The next problem, and the real root problem, are these "promised benefits" and how we deal with them. We can't very well expect politicians to abolish the benefits, they are elected for the sole purpose of obtaining these benefits for their constituents. So, that is not going to happen in reality, ultra-conservatives can dream about it all they like, it ain't going to happen. Food Stamps, Head Start, and AFDC are here to stay.

What I would suggest, would be reform and modification, to make the benefits less available for those who don't need them. Why do people like Joe Kennedy get to draw Social Security and Medicare? Why can't these 'benefits' exclude those who don't really need assistance? Another scam we have going, is 'disability'. I can understand, if a guy gets his arm caught in a machine and becomes disabled, we need some mechanism to protect him and his family. I can see where this is a reasonable and responsible thing to do, and I don't have a problem with that... it's the 40-year-old fat ass who lives with Momma, and doesn't want to work, so he has some quack doctor diagnose a back problem, and there he sits on his ass playing his X-box, waiting for his check. These sort of "promised benefits" need to be revisited, in my opinion.

There is also the principle of growth. The rather simple concept, that as long as we are making more than we spend, the debt can be reduced over time. This requires that we use discipline and not spend the extra money, which politicians have proven they are unable to do. When we do manage to make more than we spend, politicians tend to find a way to spend it! Of course, my favorite way, is for them to give me a tax cut, at least I can see some tangible benefit for myself. But politicians in DC have a million ways to spend your money, and most of them include no tangible benefit to you individually.

This is what caused me to laugh so hard at Al Gore's idea of a "lock box"... it doesn't do much good if politicians have the key to the lock box, in my opinion. It's like a cocaine addict locking his stash in a box... will that plan ultimately work to break his habit? How about a cigarette smoker locking his smokes in the car? Will that make him quit smoking? We already had a SS "lock box", it was called a "trust fund" and it's full of I.O.U.'s now!

This is not an easy can of worms you've opened here, when you are legitimately serious about solving the problem. The simple-minded liberal approach of raising the tax rate for the rich, will not solve it. If anything, it will exacerbate the problem by reducing the gross revenues. The conservative libertarian idea of stripping government down to its bare essentials, would work, but there would be a lot of pissed off benefit recipients, as well as people dying in the streets from starvation and poverty... something most politicians don't want to be responsible for.

Balance the budget! Modify, reform, and change the current parameters of the "promised benefits", so that your payout is not greater than your revenue. Once your budget is out of the red, allow the natural growth to pay down the debt over time. Amazingly enough, when this starts to happen with regularity, the debt will vanish relatively quickly... not in two or three years, but within a few decades. This can't happen in the current environment, it's too political. People are stupid, and don't understand economics... they hear that so-and-so is going to "cut" their pet program, and they better vote for the other guy... and they do. They hear that so-and-so is planning on giving them a tax cut, and they essentially sell their vote for cash.

It's like Uncle Sam has become our Rich Uncle Sam. We don't have the slightest concern for our rich uncle's problems, or how he conducts his financial affairs, we just expect him to dole out the money to enable us to keep living like the rich nephew.

You are right though, it can't keep going the way it has indefinitely.
 
Pretty fancy dancing there Dix, too bad you tripped yourself up ;)

Whatever. You can claim I am dancing, but I don't see it. Is there something specific you are referring to, with regards to 'tripping myself up'? Because I don't understand how that could be derived from my post. Did you even have time to read my post? I posted it at 10:16 and you replied at 10:18... so, you read 13 paragraphs in less than 2 minutes? I hardly think so.

Tell ya what, stop being a knee-jerk reactionary, and actually try READING the post before you respond. In fact, take a few minutes to read it a second time, maybe do a little research, formulate a valid response to what I said, attempt to engage in debate rather than act like a 7-year-old. You'll be amazed at what this will do for your credibility.
 
Dixie, I read entire novels in an evening....
the last time I was tested many years ago I read at over 900 WPM.
 
Dixie, I read entire novels in an evening....
the last time I was tested many years ago I read at over 900 WPM.

That's all good and well, but you apparently lose something in comprehension. Your knee-jerk response indicates you didn't bother to read what I posted, and given it was a whole 2 minutes, including the time it took you to type your response, I think it's a reasonable conclusion, that you didn't read it. If you did, you certainly didn't comprehend any of it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a volume of War and Peace I am going to fan through in 30 seconds and claim I've read.
 
Now if you'll excuse me, I have a volume of War and Peace I am going to fan through in 30 seconds and claim I've read.

Okay, even I have to admit, that was funny Dixie.

Not nearly as funny as this though:

This is a consideration most pinheads aren't smart enough to understand, but it's been proven over and over again. You simply can't tax your way out of debt.

Especially considering Bush thinks he can spend his way out of debt.

Food Stamps, Head Start, and AFDC are here to stay

I find it fascinating that cons always want to attack the social programs that make up an insignificant amount of our budget yet yield substantial benefits. The real issue that it will take cajunas to takle is the military budget and eliminating that fat.

Now, how bad @$$ are you with takling that? Or will you and your ilk continue to use the poor and politically weak as budgetary scapegoats?
 
That's all good and well, but you apparently lose something in comprehension. Your knee-jerk response indicates you didn't bother to read what I posted, and given it was a whole 2 minutes, including the time it took you to type your response, I think it's a reasonable conclusion, that you didn't read it. If you did, you certainly didn't comprehend any of it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a volume of War and Peace I am going to fan through in 30 seconds and claim I've read.

ROFLMAO, this from the king of reading comprehension ;)
 
DIXIE: "That's all good and well, but you apparently lose something in comprehension. Your knee-jerk response indicates you didn't bother to read what I posted!"


Newsflash: virtually no one ever reads past the first couple sentences of one of your long-winded diatribes.

You're virtually always wrong about nearly everything. There is nothing of value to be learned from one of your diatribes....unless its to learn what we should NOT be doing.
 
unless its to learn what we should NOT be doing.
//
True, wrong Way dix is a good predictor, you just have hang upside down while reading his post in a mirror for it to make sense.
Of course after hanaging upside down long enough you might have a vision....
 
I disagree with Dixie's over-simplification that has a marginal tax increase on the wealthy "suddenly" turning profitable enterprises into losers. The economy did quite nicely under Bill Clinton..... and even the dot-com bust was relatively narrow in its effect and short in its duration.... returning to Clinton era tax rates is not going to take a company making $30M into red ink.

And I do not disagree with some sort of means test for social security. Millionaires do not need to draw any benefits from such a program.
 
Whatever. You can claim I am dancing, but I don't see it. Is there something specific you are referring to, with regards to 'tripping myself up'? Because I don't understand how that could be derived from my post. Did you even have time to read my post? I posted it at 10:16 and you replied at 10:18... so, you read 13 paragraphs in less than 2 minutes? I hardly think so.

Tell ya what, stop being a knee-jerk reactionary, and actually try READING the post before you respond. In fact, take a few minutes to read it a second time, maybe do a little research, formulate a valid response to what I said, attempt to engage in debate rather than act like a 7-year-old. You'll be amazed at what this will do for your credibility.

He read three words "posted by Dixie" that was all he needed to go on another one sentence attack fest. I can't figure out why it takes him six seperate postings to say something he could say in a paragraph.
 
Especially considering Bush thinks he can spend his way out of debt.

I think this is an absurd supposition on its face, Bush doesn't think he can spend his way out of debt, he isn't concerned about the debt. Most politicians aren't, they will likely not be around when it all catches up to us, so they don't worry about it.

I find it fascinating that cons always want to attack the social programs that make up an insignificant amount of our budget yet yield substantial benefits. The real issue that it will take cajunas to takle is the military budget and eliminating that fat.

I find it amazing that you read an attack in my comments that these programs are here to stay, like 'em or not. Your reply indicates yet another problem with any substantive debate on the budget, no one wants to cut the things they like, everyone wants to cut the things they don't. To balance the budget in a truly meaningful way, we will all have to give up some things we like, and not have everything we want.

I disagree with Dixie's over-simplification that has a marginal tax increase on the wealthy "suddenly" turning profitable enterprises into losers.

Well, the beauty of life is, you don't have to take my word for anything! You can easily search data on the Internet, and you can review our past history of tax increases and tax cuts, to see the real picture and fully understand what I have said here. Any time we have increased the marginal rates on the wealthy, it has resulted in less net revenue, and any time we have decreased this rate, it has yielded and increase.

I gave an example with the $30 million company, I am certain there would be such cases, as there always have been. People who deal in billion dollar transactions and six-figure taxes, are definitely effected by even the slightest increase in rate, and their business decisions are often predicated solely on these rates. The extent of these decisions are related to the amount of change, drastic increases in tax will cause a more dramatic effect than slight increases, and the same holds true with decreases.

Let's remember the argument here, you are saying there is no effective change in business decisions and practices with a tax increase, I am saying there is. I'm not saying that this effect will be dramatic with any increase, only that it will exist, to what extent, is entirely a matter of how much the increase is. For proof, look at the Reagan tax cuts and the resulting revenues produced afterward, look at the Clinton tax increase, and how revenues dropped afterward, then look at the Clinton tax cut and Bush tax cuts, and the resulting revenues after that. You can do this at any point in our economic history and find the same results, but these are the most recent examples.

Tax decrease results in revenue increase, every single time it's tried. Now, certainly, this doesn't mean that we can just cut tax to 0% and have more money coming in than ever before, where would it come from at a 0% tax rate? So, there is a point of diminishing return, where you aren't taxing enough to bring in the revenue, even in a good economy. The secret to good economics, is to establish a formula based on economic growth, or GDP. A certain level of taxation is most efficient, any less would produce less revenue, and any more, would also produce less revenue. This is why our debt problem can't be resolved by taxing the rich more, it doesn't work like that. The more you tax the rich, the less the middle class have any stake in the responsibility, the more likely it is for the rich to live like the middle class and put their fortunes to work helping the Swiss economy, not ours.
 
So at 400% of our GDP does this mean it would take us 400 years to pay off this debt if all growth was directed towards that goal ?
 
He read three words "posted by Dixie" that was all he needed to go on another one sentence attack fest.

Exactly! You can also read very clearly in my post...

This is not an easy can of worms you've opened here, when you are legitimately serious about solving the problem. The simple-minded liberal approach of raising the tax rate for the rich, will not solve it.

Maine's first words.... I disagree with Dixie's over-simplification...

Most rational and intelligent people can understand that I have not over-simplified anything, rather exposed an over-simplified liberal myth, that all can be solved by raising taxes on the rich.

IF everything remained static, this might very well be the case! But in the Real World, things don't remain static, we don't have the same economy we have at this moment, things constantly change, growth constantly changes pace, interest fluctuates, stocks rise and fall, wars happen, things change again! You simply have to look at the Federal revenues in a non-static way, because that is what you are dealing with. They are largely dependent on a good and thriving economy with little unemployment and moderate growth. Tax rates can effect this dramatically, especially when dealing with the taxation of the people who have the majority of the money which churns the economy in some way or another. It's not static! The rich didn't get rich by being stupid, and they will always be rich because they know how to get rich and stay rich, if they didn't, they would not be rich. If you want to tax them 90% on their profits, guess how much profit they are going to produce? Guess how much they are not going to spend, funding anything that might possibly result in a profit for them? Guess how many ways they will find to spend their millions, or disperse their millions, to foreign investors who love the American dollar? Guess how much less revenue from our stagnating economy would be produced as a result?

I am a big believer in the Flat tax, and the Fair tax. I wish someone would combine the best of both worlds and do away with the IRS. The means to a healthy, growing, thriving economy with reduced debt, is through dispersing the tax burden equally. Either through a consumption tax, or by a standard % for all to pay.

Walter E. Williams suggested we should have taxation tied to votes, the people who pay the most in taxes, have the most votes. His reasoning is, this is how every major corporation in America is operated, the shareholders and stockholders control the votes on corporate policy. The people who are investing the money, are the ones who determine how the money is spent. If it makes sense for corporate America, why not the Government?
 
Back
Top