Thucydides: The Mytilenian Debate

[Cypress]

Issues raised: democracy and empire, death penalty, deterrence, human nature, rule of law, rhetoric.
Also raised: Exercise of soft power and temperance versus retribution and vengeance.

Thucydides: The Mytilenian Debate

In 428, the Mytilenians revolted against Athens, even though they had enjoyed privileged status in the Athenian empire. Under siege, the democratic faction in Mytilene eventually decided to give up and forced the oligarchs to surrender the city.

The Athenians decreed that all adult male Mytilenians be put to death and the women and children be enslaved, but on the next day, they reconsidered. The following two speeches were reconstructed by Thucydides to present the debate.


Cleon's Speech:
Democracy cannot rule an empire
• changing your minds about Mytilene illustrates that you think that because in Athens you can afford not to worry about conspiracies, you can do the same amongst your allies
• but your empire is a tyranny and you have unwilling subjects who continually plot against you
• they obey you only because you are stronger

decisions must stand firm
The Mytilenians have done us a greater harm than any other city
• They did not learn from others' example
• their prosperity made them arrogant and reckless
• We should never have given them their extraordinary privileges

THEREFORE, they should be punished as they deserve!
• we should stick to our previous decision to kill them all
• do not give in to pity
• do not give in to your delight in good speeches
• do not give in to your sense of fairness


Diodotus' speech:
Haste and anger are inimical to good judgement (i.e. we should not act hastily or angrily)
• haste is usually thoughtless
• anger is ill-formed and narrow-minded
• discussion is necessary for action (i.e. we need to discuss now, and carefully)

If one does not want to discuss the matter, he is either
• stupid because there is no other way to consider the future, or has ulterior motives

Not killing the Mitylenians is to Athens' advantage in the future
• the death penalty does not work to deter crimes
• given that cities will inevitably rebel anyway
• and that the death penalty leaves them no option to quit before they have either utterly succeeded or utterly failed
• the death penalty will only make rebellions harder to put down.

if we kill them, we will lose revenue from Mytilene
• We should look for a way to impose moderate penalties and insure revenue from Mytilene in the future
• I am not arguing for pity or fairness, but for Athens' advantage
• let the Mytilenians live and take your time punishing the ringleaders; the leaders, not the followers are to blame-

http://www.uvm.edu/~jbailly/courses/clas158/notes/thucMytilenDebate.html

Diodotus prevailed

 

[Cypress]

My two cents.

In my opinion, the Millennia Debate condenses and encapsulates the essence of Greek intellectual thought in terms of rhetoric, reason, and justice. That is exactly the type of moral philosophy that Athens became known for and which served as a model for western civilization for the next two millennia.

Cleon arguably represents the philosophy of the reactionaries, the conservatism, the oligarchy, and of tyranny.
He questions the worth of a democracy and holds fast to a might-makes-right zero sum view of justice and empire.

Diodotus represents the voice of reason, temperance, and justice (as opposed to vengeance). Arguably it is the voice of liberalism and rationality.
He articulates that the death penalty is not an effective deterrent, and that what is in Athens’ best long term rational self-interest is to moderate the temptation for revenge, to think about long term consequences, and to realize that introspection and temperance are not weaknesses, but a strengths.