USA vs Miller

evince

Truthmatters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller#Decision




Decision[edit]

On May 15, 1939 the Supreme Court, in an opinion by Justice McReynolds, held: The National Firearms Act, as applied to one indicted for transporting in interstate commerce a 12-gauge shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches long without having registered it and without having in his possession a stamp-affixed written order for it, as required by the Act, held:
1.Not unconstitutional as an invasion of the reserved powers of the States. Citing Sonzinsky v. United States, 300 U. S. 506,[2] and Narcotic Act cases. P. 307 U. S. 177.
2.Not violative of the Second Amendment of the Federal Constitution. P. 307 U. S. 178.

The Court cannot take judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has today any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, and therefore cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees to the citizen the right to keep and bear such a weapon.

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.
 
an Act of law that congress had no authority to create, let alone enforce. You should really read the run up to the FFA and see their twisted reasoning on how they can get around 'shall not be infringed', but then you'd just call it all a lie
 
Jack Miller, a bank robber and moonshiner with many enemies, felt the need to carry a sawed off shotgun without paying the tax. He and his associate, Frank Layton, had the misfortune to be caught transporting it from Oklahoma to Arkansas and were arrested in June of 1938 by federal agents on charges of violating the Firearms Act.



http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0801/0801usvmiller.htm

Seems like the issue for the gobblement was getting its tribute in the form of cash
 
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

Which means what to you?

The first lower federal court to "interpret" Miller --Cases v. U.S, 131 F.2d 916 (1 st Cir. 1942)-- represented Miller to be a radical and dangerous decision that would in effect negate all gun control and invalidate any claim of the federal government to regulate private citizen's possession and use of any modern arms, including military arms like machine guns, trench mortars, anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns.

Because of that hyperbolic interpretation, the Cases court chose to dismiss and ignore SCOTUS without any legal reasoning other than it felt the framers couldn't have intended to bind the government so completely.

The Cases court then changed the rules . . . They shifted the focus of 2nd Amendment protection from the type of weapon and its function and effectiveness in battle, to the state of mind and intent of the citizen challenging a gun control law.

And thus the "militia right" interpretation of the 2nd Amendment was born . . .

After quoting Miller's famous paragraph (as you did), the Cases court said:


"the rule of the Miller case, if intended to be comprehensive and complete would seem to be already outdated, in spite of the fact that it was formulated only three and a half years ago, because of the well known fact that in the so called 'Commando Units' some sort of military use seems to have been found for almost any modern lethal weapon. In view of this, if the rule of the Miller case is general and complete, the result would follow that, under present day conditions, the federal government would be empowered only to regulate the possession or use of weapons such as a flintlock musket or a matchlock harquebus. But to hold that the Second Amendment limits the federal government to regulations concerning only weapons which can be classed as antiques or curiosities,-- almost any other might bear some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia unit of the present day,-- is in effect to hold that the limitation of the Second Amendment is absolute. Another objection to the rule of the Miller case as a full and general statement is that according to it Congress would be prevented by the Second Amendment from regulating the possession or use by private persons not present or prospective members of any military unit, of distinctly military arms, such as machine guns, trench mortars, anti-tank or anti-aircraft guns, even though under the circumstances surrounding such possession or use it would be inconceivable that a private person could have any legitimate reason for having such a weapon. It seems to us unlikely that the framers of the Amendment intended any such result."​

Well, it is no wonder they opine now, that Miller formulated no rule. The reason this had to be done was that it actually was a "well known fact" or as the Miller court said, "within judicial notice," that all guns have military usefulness.

The shotgun that the Miller court said, "has no reasonable relationship, . . ." is, truth be told, absolutely an arm beyond the reach of the NFA '34.

Thus, all guns would be protected, including the Cases appellant's .38 caliber revolver and nearly all gun control laws would be struck down. Expressing how uncomfortable the court was with what it deemed to be the inevitable societal implications of the Miller rule being applicable at their present time, the Cases court simply rejected Miller's reasoning and ruling.

But now the judges were faced with a dilemma. The law could afford them no comfort, the law was a bed of nails. This realization, I would go so far as to say it manifested itself as a panic, forced them to turn to their only solace, the facts of the case before them. It was time to make lemonade.

The opinion continues:


"We therefore turn to the record in the case at bar. From it it appears that on or about August 27, 1941, the appellant received into his possession and carried away ten rounds of ammunition, and that on the evening of August 30 of the same year he went to Annadale's Beach Club on Isla Verde in the municipality of Carolina, Puerto Rico, equipped with a .38 caliber Colt type revolver of Spanish make which, when some one turned out the lights, he used, apparently not wholly without effect, upon another patron of the place who in some way seems to have incurred his displeasure. While the weapon may be capable of military use, or while at least familiarity with it might be regarded as of value in training a person to use a comparable weapon of military type and caliber, still there is no evidence that the appellant was or ever had been a member of any military organization or that his use of the weapon under the circumstances disclosed was in preparation for a military career."​


So after recognizing the gun at issue meets the "Miller test" and its possession and use is protected, this court makes the incredible leap of stipulating the state of mind of the person claiming a Second Amendment right as a condition for exercising the right. The Cases court changed the rules, they shifted the protection criteria from the military usefulness of the arm being demonstrated to requiring that the person, as a prerequisite to maintaining a Second Amendment claim, have as his intent in actually using the firearm, essentially his paramount concern, the actual maintenance and preservation of the militia!

If the gun isn't used by the military, its use is only protected if that use is "in preparation for a military career." As I said above, this was the genesis of the "militia right" interpretation in the federal court system.

This lower federal court offered absolutely no basis other than personal feelings for its ultimate conclusion about the Miller decision and its action of ignoring the obvious determinations required by Miller (that it plainly recognized and explained). No legal justification or substantiation was given for the leap it took, regarding the status of the citizen and the focus of his intent.

The only explanation for the bizarre and disconnected Cases decision is the court undoubtedly felt that, as a matter of public policy, any meaningful limitation upon the government's power to restrict private ownership of firearms was unacceptable. The court felt the need to sustain the status quo and invented new law to "justify" that overreach.

Now you know what Miller really means and what it demands.
.
 
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Which means what to you?

The first lower federal court to "interpret" Miller --Cases v. U.S, 131 F.2d 916 (1 st Cir. 1942)-- represented Miller to be a radical and dangerous decision that would in effect negate all gun control and invalidate any claim of the federal government to regulate private citizen's possession and use of any modern arms, including military arms like machine guns, trench mortars, anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns.

Because of that hyperbolic interpretation, the Cases court chose to dismiss and ignore SCOTUS without any legal reasoning other than it felt the framers couldn't have intended to bind the government so completely.

The Cases court then changed the rules . . . They shifted the focus of 2nd Amendment protection from the type of weapon and its function and effectiveness in battle, to the state of mind and intent of the citizen challenging a gun control law.

And thus the "militia right" interpretation of the 2nd Amendment was born . . .

After quoting Miller's famous paragraph (as you did), the Cases court said:


"the rule of the Miller case, if intended to be comprehensive and complete would seem to be already outdated, in spite of the fact that it was formulated only three and a half years ago, because of the well known fact that in the so called 'Commando Units' some sort of military use seems to have been found for almost any modern lethal weapon. In view of this, if the rule of the Miller case is general and complete, the result would follow that, under present day conditions, the federal government would be empowered only to regulate the possession or use of weapons such as a flintlock musket or a matchlock harquebus. But to hold that the Second Amendment limits the federal government to regulations concerning only weapons which can be classed as antiques or curiosities,-- almost any other might bear some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia unit of the present day,-- is in effect to hold that the limitation of the Second Amendment is absolute. Another objection to the rule of the Miller case as a full and general statement is that according to it Congress would be prevented by the Second Amendment from regulating the possession or use by private persons not present or prospective members of any military unit, of distinctly military arms, such as machine guns, trench mortars, anti-tank or anti-aircraft guns, even though under the circumstances surrounding such possession or use it would be inconceivable that a private person could have any legitimate reason for having such a weapon. It seems to us unlikely that the framers of the Amendment intended any such result."​

Well, it is no wonder they opine now, that Miller formulated no rule. The reason this had to be done was that it actually was a "well known fact" or as the Miller court said, "within judicial notice," that all guns have military usefulness.

The shotgun that the Miller court said, "has no reasonable relationship, . . ." is, truth be told, absolutely an arm beyond the reach of the NFA '34.

Thus, all guns would be protected, including the Cases appellant's .38 caliber revolver and nearly all gun control laws would be struck down. Expressing how uncomfortable the court was with what it deemed to be the inevitable societal implications of the Miller rule being applicable at their present time, the Cases court simply rejected Miller's reasoning and ruling.

But now the judges were faced with a dilemma. The law could afford them no comfort, the law was a bed of nails. This realization, I would go so far as to say it manifested itself as a panic, forced them to turn to their only solace, the facts of the case before them. It was time to make lemonade.

The opinion continues:


"We therefore turn to the record in the case at bar. From it it appears that on or about August 27, 1941, the appellant received into his possession and carried away ten rounds of ammunition, and that on the evening of August 30 of the same year he went to Annadale's Beach Club on Isla Verde in the municipality of Carolina, Puerto Rico, equipped with a .38 caliber Colt type revolver of Spanish make which, when some one turned out the lights, he used, apparently not wholly without effect, upon another patron of the place who in some way seems to have incurred his displeasure. While the weapon may be capable of military use, or while at least familiarity with it might be regarded as of value in training a person to use a comparable weapon of military type and caliber, still there is no evidence that the appellant was or ever had been a member of any military organization or that his use of the weapon under the circumstances disclosed was in preparation for a military career."​


So after recognizing the gun at issue meets the "Miller test" and its possession and use is protected, this court makes the incredible leap of stipulating the state of mind of the person claiming a Second Amendment right as a condition for exercising the right. The Cases court changed the rules, they shifted the protection criteria from the military usefulness of the arm being demonstrated to requiring that the person, as a prerequisite to maintaining a Second Amendment claim, have as his intent in actually using the firearm, essentially his paramount concern, the actual maintenance and preservation of the militia!

If the gun isn't used by the military, its use is only protected if that use is "in preparation for a military career." As I said above, this was the genesis of the "militia right" interpretation in the federal court system.

This lower federal court offered absolutely no basis other than personal feelings for its ultimate conclusion about the Miller decision and its action of ignoring the obvious determinations required by Miller (that it plainly recognized and explained). No legal justification or substantiation was given for the leap it took, regarding the status of the citizen and the focus of his intent.

The only explanation for the bizarre and disconnected Cases decision is the court undoubtedly felt that, as a matter of public policy, any meaningful limitation upon the government's power to restrict private ownership of firearms was unacceptable. The court felt the need to sustain the status quo and invented new law to "justify" that overreach.

Now you know what Miller really means and what it demands.
.

They need to check with all those boys who served in Vietnam and sawed off the barrels of those shotguns their parents sent them.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...iller#Decision




Decision[edit]

On May 15, 1939 the Supreme Court, in an opinion by Justice McReynolds, held: The National Firearms Act, as applied to one indicted for transporting in interstate commerce a 12-gauge shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches long without having registered it and without having in his possession a stamp-affixed written order for it, as required by the Act, held:
1.Not unconstitutional as an invasion of the reserved powers of the States. Citing Sonzinsky v. United States, 300 U. S. 506,[2] and Narcotic Act cases. P. 307 U. S. 177.
2.Not violative of the Second Amendment of the Federal Constitution. P. 307 U. S. 178.

The Court cannot take judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has today any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, and therefore cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees to the citizen the right to keep and bear such a weapon.

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.
 
He said that about small

Just my opinion but I think that's such a B.S. answer. (Ironically he made that remark at a house on my street about six blocks from me) I'm a City guy. I've lived in urban areas all my life so I understand the 'urban mindset'. But having family from the Midwest that lives in smaller towns there are great people there. I think it's patronizing as hell to say they cling to their guns and bibles because us 'city folk' are so much more sophisticated and better than that.
 
The Court cannot take judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has today any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...iller#Decision




Decision[edit]

On May 15, 1939 the Supreme Court, in an opinion by Justice McReynolds, held: The National Firearms Act, as applied to one indicted for transporting in interstate commerce a 12-gauge shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches long without having registered it and without having in his possession a stamp-affixed written order for it, as required by the Act, held:
1.Not unconstitutional as an invasion of the reserved powers of the States. Citing Sonzinsky v. United States, 300 U. S. 506,[2] and Narcotic Act cases. P. 307 U. S. 177.
2.Not violative of the Second Amendment of the Federal Constitution. P. 307 U. S. 178.

The Court cannot take judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has today any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, and therefore cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees to the citizen the right to keep and bear such a weapon.

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

So, what do you surmise the status to be of a shotgun with a barrel longer than 18 inches?

It its possession and use by regular private citizens protected by the 2nd Amendment?

PS You have nothing to say regarding my post above, about what Miller actually means?
 
Shotguns are of no use in the modern militia, so, let's kindly remind all Americans that they are no longer protected by the 2nd Amendment. Damn cheapskates need to get out there and purchase an M-16!

:evilnod:
 
Shotguns are of no use in the modern militia, so, let's kindly remind all Americans that they are no longer protected by the 2nd Amendment. Damn cheapskates need to get out there and purchase an M-16!

Remember, the protection criteria established by SCOTUS in Miller has multiple points.

Actually, Mossberg 500 series pump guns are used by our military today and that's only one prong of the protection criteria (the arm must be of a type that is "part of the regular military equipment").

A pump-action shotgun is also a type of arm thats use could contribute to the common defense, so that's two protection criteria met.

And of course, a pump-action shotgun is perhaps the most ubiquitous type of arm possessed and used by US citizens, thus it meets the "in common use" criteria as well.

A question remains regarding the select-fire M-16.

As I wrote above, a rigid reading of Miller would demand that the government is rendered impotent in regulating machine guns, sawed-off shotguns and other arms like anti-aircraft guns.

But Scalia balanced the right and suggested the restrictions on Title II arms (specifically mentioning the M-16) would be sustained in a 2nd Amendment challenge.

I agree with that; I think the government would be successful arguing for the Class III restrictions to stay in place and against wide availability and again, I'm OK with that.

I do believe that so-called "assault weapons" (semi-automatic) are protected under the 2nd Amendment, and any bans on them or what are called, "large capacity magazines" should and will be invalidated.
 
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Just my opinion but I think that's such a B.S. answer. (Ironically he made that remark at a house on my street about six blocks from me) I'm a City guy. I've lived in urban areas all my life so I understand the 'urban mindset'. But having family from the Midwest that lives in smaller towns there are great people there. I think it's patronizing as hell to say they cling to their guns and bibles because us 'city folk' are so much more sophisticated and better than that.

Totally agree.

Interesting map of the "clingers" and gun contollers:

GunControlSupportMap_zpshxdjsac8.jpg
 
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