Lesser Evil? Obama More Likely to Attack Iran than Romney

[blackascoal]

Do you not recall the 2000 election and Florida? The Jewish vote could have easily decided the whole election. I don't think Obama has to really worry about the Hispanic and Black votes they tend to be reliably Democratic.

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/27/reliably_democratic_jewish_vote_gets_romney_eye/

My point to you is that this isn't about Jews, Blacks, or Hispanics. It isn't about pundits predictions or interpretations about elections.

it's about the you, the individual.

How does the individual who knows the horrors that come with war .. the individual who stood against the war on Vietnam and invasion of Iraq .. and who recognizes the failure of the never-ending war in Afghanistan .. the individual who claims antiwar as principle .. how does that person ignore the truth of the perpetual wars and more wars on the way around them?

In truth, republicans don't even belong in this conversation because they are not encumbered by a real sense of humanity that stands against war. They don't have that. They see it as weakness.

I wonder how those who have it reconcile their rejection of it.

 

[Haiku]

Isn't the Jewish vote reliably 80+% Democratic?

If that's true I wonder why that would be? On the right there are many beliefs about Jews and one is that they're communists and we all know how politically insecure and phobic those on the right are. What does the right offer beyond more of the same, more of the same, harder, harder??

 

[Haiku]

My point to you is that this isn't about Jews, Blacks, or Hispanics. It isn't about pundits predictions or interpretations about elections.

it's about the you, the individual.

How does the individual who knows the horrors that come with war .. the individual who stood against the war on Vietnam and invasion of Iraq .. and who recognizes the failure of the never-ending war in Afghanistan .. the individual who claims antiwar as principle .. how does that person ignore the truth of the perpetual wars and more wars on the way around them?

In truth, republicans don't even belong in this conversation because they are not encumbered by a real sense of humanity that stands against war. They don't have that. They see it as weakness.

I wonder how those who have it reconcile their rejection of it.

Obama is not a progressive. Like Clinton he's on the right. Where is the left? I agree with you and I also agree that the left has been silenced by Obama's election. I also agree that the right has no humanity. Given those realities and the crisis we're experiencing what do you propose? If we don't plan long term and do the work required to turn this around, starting locally, then who would we vote for? Is this a good time for a protest vote? What would it serve if we all believe we are not listened to?

Much of what I see I view as intentional...the intentional effort to turn people off to participation. Getting people involved, moving and active is what's needed and I applaud your effort to start this conversation however focusing on this election, in this way, when there is so much effort to stop people from voting seems counter productive to me.

 

[anatta]

In terms of raw numbers, wouldn't the hispanic vote be more important? Would they not be the decider in more elections?

Are there legitimate and sound questions that can be asked about what price we pay for Israel?

Hispanic(Latino) vote is larger numbers then Jewish, but Romney is in the 20's with Latinos. He's tied to Republican ideas of "do nothing on immigration reform until a fence is built".
That doesn't fit well for Hispanics, and Obama generally gets the non-white vote ( if Hispanics are that) - either way Obama has stopped deporations of young "illegals" etc. I'm in Fla. the Latino I talk to -except some of the older ppl -are largely going for Obama - which could mean the diffrence in Fla.

If Romney can't win Fla. -he cannot not win the electoral vote - as Ohio looks to be more and more for Obama

Rommney/Repubs just doesn't connect, so he's trying to chip away at the Jewish vote, which is normally Democrat

 

[CanceledB]

We have voting machines that jack the vote. We have voter ID laws intended to jack the vote and disenfranchise voters. We have corporate and offshore money used to jack the vote and stack the deck. We have a bought and paid for Supreme Court that isn't elected and is the final word. We have racist religious freaks forming militias against gays, blacks, mexicans, muslims and liberals who believe the Black Panthers were thugs when they had registered guns while black and didn't cower to the racist system. Until we get the money out the corruption wins every time and we the people busy ourselves with entertainment and pointing fingers at each other while we feel smug in our belief that we're #1. Totally insane bullshit.

Soul? What soul? We're rapidly becoming a collective human husk with dead eyes. We hear crowds at debates boo at honesty. (ie. an out gay veteran)

Day-um.

 

[anatta]

My point to you is that this isn't about Jews, Blacks, or Hispanics. It isn't about pundits predictions or interpretations about elections.

it's about the you, the individual.

How does the individual who knows the horrors that come with war .. the individual who stood against the war on Vietnam and invasion of Iraq .. and who recognizes the failure of the never-ending war in Afghanistan .. the individual who claims antiwar as principle .. how does that person ignore the truth of the perpetual wars and more wars on the way around them?

In truth, republicans don't even belong in this conversation because they are not encumbered by a real sense of humanity that stands against war. They don't have that. They see it as weakness.

I wonder how those who have it reconcile their rejection of it.

there is nothing to cover in the news. no protests over Libya -in fact Obama was praised for that rape.
No coverage of AfPak - even the bombings, are not covered. when is the last report you've seen on AfPak? Been awhile, and i see more in my local paper about dead Floridians but nothing nationally.

Also Obama has promised " no combat role past 2013" - that's what ppl hear -they don't hear "we will play a support role for another 10 years.

Yemen? Ppl have no clue - or Somalia -in fact the sick twisted American mind APPROVES of drone use - ya know war is a video game right?

Add it all up, Americans don't really care about foreign wars, and Democrats are not going to criticize their own party.

Just check you conscious at the voting booth, vote Obomber, and STFU

 

[blackascoal]

Obama is not a progressive. Like Clinton he's on the right. Where is the left? I agree with you and I also agree that the left has been silenced by Obama's election. I also agree that the right has no humanity. Given those realities and the crisis we're experiencing what do you propose? If we don't plan long term and do the work required to turn this around, starting locally, then who would we vote for? Is this a good time for a protest vote? What would it serve if we all believe we are not listened to?

Much of what I see I view as intentional...the intentional effort to turn people off to participation. Getting people involved, moving and active is what's needed and I applaud your effort to start this conversation however focusing on this election, in this way, when there is so much effort to stop people from voting seems counter productive to me.

Thank you for the excellent thoughts.

Start from here .. what the left and progressives have been doing isn't working .. and it isn't going to work. Lesser evil has been pushed so far to the right that we now stand on the right of many Vietnam-era republicans. Richard Nixon had a better healthcare plan in 1974 than what progressives have to swallow today.

Our efforts at antiwar are a joke .. as are antiwar protestors. But it doesn't stop at war. Our record on civil liberties has only gotten worse under Obama .. and given that he now has the right to murder any American without trial .. I'd say MUCH worse. And what did the left and progressives do?

Not a goddamn thing. We just dropped our collective panties and bent over.

Start from there and the answer is pretty clear. The two-party system is a monumental failure. That system has been sold to the highest bidders. The Democratic Party is not the answer when voters have no ability to control or even influence it. They laugh at progressives and take them for fools. Obama doesn't even them around him.

The truth doesn't always feel good.

Critical thinking dictates that the left seek another course.

 

[blackascoal]

there is nothing to cover in the news. no protests over Libya -in fact Obama was praised for that rape.
No coverage of AfPak - even the bombings, are not covered. when is the last report you've seen on AfPak? Been awhile, and i see more in my local paper about dead Floridians but nothing nationally.

Also Obama has promised " no combat role past 2013" - that's what ppl hear -they don't hear "we will play a support role for another 10 years.

Yemen? Ppl have no clue - or Somalia -in fact the sick twisted American mind APPROVES of drone use - ya know war is a video game right?

Add it all up, Americans don't really care about foreign wars, and Democrats are not going to criticize their own party.

Just check you conscious at the voting booth, vote Obomber, and STFU

All sadly very true.

Even this conversation is much too uncomfortable to have.

.. and sometimes the mirror ain't pretty.

 

[Haiku]

Thank you for the excellent thoughts.

Start from here .. what the left and progressives have been doing isn't working .. and it isn't going to work. Lesser evil has been pushed so far to the right that we now stand on the right of many Vietnam-era republicans. Richard Nixon had a better healthcare plan in 1974 than what progressives have to swallow today.

Our efforts at antiwar are a joke .. as are antiwar protestors. But it doesn't stop at war. Our record on civil liberties has only gotten worse under Obama .. and given that he now has the right to murder any American without trial .. I'd say MUCH worse. And what did the left and progressives do?

Not a goddamn thing. We just dropped our collective panties and bent over.

Start from there and the answer is pretty clear. The two-party system is a monumental failure. That system has been sold to the highest bidders. The Democratic Party is not the answer when voters have no ability to control or even influence it. They laugh at progressives and take them for fools. Obama doesn't even them around him.

The truth doesn't always feel good.

Critical thinking dictates that the left seek another course.

I'm a registered independent but I suppose I'm really a democratic socialist from what I've read, and what I believe. I live in a small town and the nearest population is Baltimore/Washington area...going north it would be Harrisburg...south Philly. I've recently been looking online for local alternatives and other than Tbaggers there isn't much available. I've thought that looking for secularists and humanists might put me in touch with like minded people.

I've been watching documentaries on the Nazi's lately and I can think of no other group that hated socialists/communists more other than the American system.

 

[signalmankenneth]

Report: Adviser says Romney would back Israeli attack on Iran

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-aff...says-romney-would-back-israeli-attack-on-iran

Warmonger in chief?

 

[j-mac]

I'm a registered independent but I suppose I'm really a democratic socialist from what I've read, and what I believe. I live in a small town and the nearest population is Baltimore/Washington area...going north it would be Harrisburg...south Philly. I've recently been looking online for local alternatives and other than Tbaggers there isn't much available. I've thought that looking for secularists and humanists might put me in touch with like minded people.

I've been watching documentaries on the Nazi's lately and I can think of no other group that hated socialists/communists more other than the American system.

thanks for reminding me why my family fled the Bel Air, MD area 4 years ago...BTW, M.O.M. has done a great job hasn't he?

Maryland has lost more jobs so far this year than any other state in the nation according to the U.S. Department of Labor. After last Friday's release of June state unemployment figures, there is now six months of data with which to compare the states. Maryland, which lost just over 10,000 jobs since the beginning of this year, is among a dozen states to have experienced declines during this period.

"This is a very disturbing trend, which needs to be addressed," said Change Maryland Chairman Larry Hogan. "I'm deeply concerned that state government's onslaught of taxes and fees is causing us to lose businesses, jobs and taxpayers at an alarming rate." Maryland has raised taxes and fees 24 times since 2007, removing an additional $2.4 billion from the economy annually.

Maryland is also performing poorly in another important time period. From the beginning of 2007 to present, Maryland has lost more jobs than any other state in the region except for Pennsylvania, where each state lost nearly 40,000 and 60,000 jobs respectively.

http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/28714

And it is a real shame...Because I lived there for 20 years, and do love me some steamed crabs....Ah well, I'd rather be free.

 

[anatta]

thanks for reminding me why my family fled the Bel Air, MD area 4 years ago...BTW, M.O.M. has done a great job hasn't he?



And it is a real shame...Because I lived there for 20 years, and do love me some steamed crabs....Ah well, I'd rather be free.

Bel Air. Md/? I lived down the road in Glen Arm ( off Harford Rd, and Long Green Rd.) fro '74 to '99 -right by the church where they filmed Runaway Bride
I'm in Florida, they don't know how to steam anything,(shrimp boils??) much less crabs. I still get crabcakes, but I spent my youth listening to Oriole games, and 'pickin' steamed crabs.

The taxes, and the high cost of living , as well as family got me down here in'99.

 

[apple0154]

Most likely to attack Iran - excerpt

"Barack Obama is the one who’s more likely to confront Iran militarily, should sanctions and negotiations fail. He has committed himself to stopping Iran by any means necessary, and he has a three-year record as president to back his rhetoric. Romney has only rhetoric, and he would be hamstrung in many ways if he chose military confrontation.

He goes on to argue that despite the GOP challenger’s Tough rhetoric, “Romney would face several critical challenges in a conflict with Iran that Obama would not”; specifically:

Romney, by all accounts, is uninterested in inheriting the mantle of President George W. Bush, who invaded two Muslim countries and lost popularity and credibility as a result. Romney, despite his rhetoric, is more of a pragmatist than Bush, and far more cautious. An attack on Iran is an incautious act, one that even Bush rejected.

The unilateral use of force in the Middle East for a liberal Democrat like Obama is a credential; for a conservative Republican like Romney, it could be an albatross. I argued in a previous column that Romney is more likely than Obama to oversee a revitalized Middle East peace process. That’s because conservatives are better positioned to make peace; liberals are generally better positioned to launch preventive strikes at the nuclear programs of rogue nations. We know that U.S. voters, and world leaders, allow Obama extraordinary leeway when it comes to deadly drone strikes, precisely because of his politics, character and background. (We are talking about a man, after all, who won the Nobel Peace Prize while ordering the automated killing of suspected Muslim terrorists around the world.) Romney will get no comparative slack.

In other words, Obama will be freer to attack Iran than Romney would be because Democrats, progressives, and the “international community” (that’s neocon for: Europeans) passively accept or even cheer for violence, aggression and executive power abuses when ordered by a sophisticated, urbane, Constitutional Law Professor with Good Progressivism in his heart, and only cause a messy ruckus when done by an icky, religious, overtly nationalistic Republican.
http://www.salon.com/2012/07/27/most_likely_to_attack_iran/

A glaring and undeniable truth.

So much for "lesser evil."

I don't see Obama starting a war with Iran. As far as using drones I'm all for that.

The problem is Iran acquiring nuclear weapons. That's what requires focusing on. The invading of countries and changing political systems and interfering in the internal running of countries is what turns the citizens against the West and that's the Repub MO.

Let's look at Egypt. They voted for an Islamic government. Similarly, I think the Iranians want to run their country their own way. Blow up the nuclear installations but leave the internal life of the country alone. Iraq and Afghanistan don't want their young girls running around with make-up listening to whatever pre-teens listen to and neither do the rest of the Islamic countries but interference happens when there is an invasion and troops arrive. It becomes a no-win situation.

Finally, there is no reason American soldiers should be dying when drones can do the job. So I think Obama's message is don't build nuclear plants because we'll bomb them but other than that, carry on.

 

[blackascoal]

I don't see Obama starting a war with Iran. As far as using drones I'm all for that.

The problem is Iran acquiring nuclear weapons. That's what requires focusing on. The invading of countries and changing political systems and interfering in the internal running of countries is what turns the citizens against the West and that's the Repub MO.

I seriously disagree with that assessment .. and it was Obama, a democrat, who invaded and destroyed Libya. You cannot blame republicans for Obama's horrors and atrocities. That is a completely partisan view that ignores the obvious truth.

So much for "Obama won't start a war with Iran." Of course he could .. and partisans will back whatever horror comes of it.

You don't think droning planet earth hasn't turned much of the world against the west?

Barack Obama's Global Job Approval Down Sharply, Poll Says

"There remains a widespread perception that the U.S. acts unilaterally and does not consider the interests of other countries," the Pew report found. "In predominantly Muslim nations, American anti-terrorism efforts are still widely unpopular. And in nearly all countries, there is considerable opposition to a major component of the Obama administration’s anti-terrorism policy: drone strikes."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/13/barack-obamas-global-job-_n_1593299.html

No country in the world approves of Obama's drone strikes .. and the fact that democrats do proves my point about the non-existence of lesser evil.

Let's look at Egypt. They voted for an Islamic government. Similarly, I think the Iranians want to run their country their own way. Blow up the nuclear installations but leave the internal life of the country alone. Iraq and Afghanistan don't want their young girls running around with make-up listening to whatever pre-teens listen to and neither do the rest of the Islamic countries but interference happens when there is an invasion and troops arrive. It becomes a no-win situation.

It is extremely naive to think that blowing up a site puts an end to Iran's desire to protect itself from the US and Israel .. or that it would put an end to the program at all.

The Iranians have every right to protect itself from nuclear assault.

Why should they trust Americans or Israel? Please answer that question.

Question: Should America be droned?

Surely if you think it proper to drone innocent people all over the world, you believe the same "justice" should be served to America .. given that we are the world's biggest terrorist.

Finally, there is no reason American soldiers should be dying when drones can do the job. So I think Obama's message is don't build nuclear plants because we'll bomb them but other than that, carry on.

A PURELY partisan view. Any idea how many INNOCENT people Obama is murdering with drones?

Any idea how far this puts us at odds with countries like Pakistan?

Libya got rid of its WMD and still got destroyed. Perhaps Gaddafi's biggest mistake.

Tell me that you supported the war on Iraq .. which would of course be wrong as hell, but it would at least make you consistent.

Lesser evil .. or less principled voters.

 

[anatta]

I seriously disagree with that assessment .. and it was Obama, a democrat, who invaded and destroyed Libya. You cannot blame republicans for Obama's horrors and atrocities. That is a completely partisan view that ignores the obvious truth.

So much for "Obama won't start a war with Iran." Of course he could .. and partisans will back whatever horror comes of it.

You don't think droning planet earth hasn't turned much of the world against the west?

Barack Obama's Global Job Approval Down Sharply, Poll Says

"There remains a widespread perception that the U.S. acts unilaterally and does not consider the interests of other countries," the Pew report found. "In predominantly Muslim nations, American anti-terrorism efforts are still widely unpopular. And in nearly all countries, there is considerable opposition to a major component of the Obama administration’s anti-terrorism policy: drone strikes."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/13/barack-obamas-global-job-_n_1593299.html

No country in the world approves of Obama's drone strikes .. and the fact that democrats do proves my point about the non-existence of lesser evil.



It is extremely naive to think that blowing up a site puts an end to Iran's desire to protect itself from the US and Israel .. or that it would put an end to the program at all.

The Iranians have every right to protect itself from nuclear assault.

Why should they trust Americans or Israel? Please answer that question.

Question: Should America be droned?

Surely if you think it proper to drone innocent people all over the world, you believe the same "justice" should be served to America .. given that we are the world's biggest terrorist.



A PURELY partisan view. Any idea how many INNOCENT people Obama is murdering with drones?

Any idea how far this puts us at odds with countries like Pakistan?

Libya got rid of its WMD and still got destroyed. Perhaps Gaddafi's biggest mistake.

Tell me that you supported the war on Iraq .. which would of course be wrong as hell, but it would at least make you consistent.

Lesser evil .. or less principled voters.

Gaddafi's other 'big mistake' was trusting Obama, and shaking his hand at the G-8.
everyone says "he was a dictator" -but everyone DOESN"T say Gadafi was "welcomed back" into the world nation.

He paid reperations for Lockerbie, he stopped his WMD program, and was invited to the G-8.

what did it get him? -or more importantly Libya? War for oil, to kick he Chinese out of existing contracts. The NTC had a" former" (self professed chnage) leader of AQ.

None of this mattered, we wanted the oil for the EU, and since China did not back the UN ( read USA ) resolution, they got shut out of bidding for light sweet crude Libyan easily extractable oil.

Don't shake Uncle Sam's hand, he bites.

Knowing this, and the Obama's refusal to acept "accomodation" with Iran if/whenn it gets nukes - just whom is more dangerous? Romney or Obama?

Romney at least talks like the mad dog he is, while Obama carefuly couches his words, then drones the damn planet.

But -hey! no worries! he's a DEMOCRAT -and Democrats are the peace party, busily opposing Iraq, and utterly silent about AfApk,Libya, Yemen, etc.

Why in the hell wouldn't anyone think Obama would green lightan Israeli attack on Iran??

 

[blackascoal]

Gaddafi's other 'big mistake' was trusting Obama, and shaking his hand at the G-8.
everyone says "he was a dictator" -but everyone DOESN"T say Gadafi was "welcomed back" into the world nation.

He paid reperations for Lockerbie, he stopped his WMD program, and was invited to the G-8.

what did it get him? -or more importantly Libya? War for oil, to kick he Chinese out of existing contracts. The NTC had a" former" (self professed chnage) leader of AQ.

None of this mattered, we wanted the oil for the EU, and since China did not back the UN ( read USA ) resolution, they got shut out of bidding for light sweet crude Libyan easily extractable oil.

Don't shake Uncle Sam's hand, he bites.

Knowing this, and the Obama's refusal to acept "accomodation" with Iran if/whenn it gets nukes - just whom is more dangerous? Romney or Obama?

Romney at least talks like the mad dog he is, while Obama carefuly couches his words, then drones the damn planet.

But -hey! no worries! he's a DEMOCRAT -and Democrats are the peace party, busily opposing Iraq, and utterly silent about AfApk,Libya, Yemen, etc.

Why in the hell wouldn't anyone think Obama would green lightan Israeli attack on Iran??

All very true.

Obama is a warmonger .. and his supporters run from that truth.

 

[Howey]

All very true.

Obama is a warmonger .. and his supporters run from that truth.

Just wondering...what's your opinion on dictators, such as Ghadaffi and the one in Syria, using children as shields against drones. Who would be the "killer" in this case?

 

[blackascoal]

Just wondering...what's your opinion on dictators, such as Ghadaffi and the one in Syria, using children as shields against drones. Who would be the "killer" in this case?

My opinion is that the US and NATO rushed into Libya and massacred its people for their own gain .. and to seize Libyan assets .. which they did.

They also used AL QUEDA to do it .. thus negates any argument about terrorists. Terrorists were our partners in this crime against humanity.

The attack on Libya was so blatantly vile and dispicable that it negated all efforts to rush in and attack Syria. The game Obama and NATO were playing became obvious to all the world.

My opinion is that the US has no justification to rush in and destroy nations for profit and power .. exactly as we did in Iraq .. which I'm betting that you were against.

What changed your opinion on needless wars for profit? How do you now cheer, and/or excuse such inhumanity?

 

[Howey]

My opinion is that the US and NATO rushed into Libya and massacred its people for their own gain .. and to seize Libyan assets .. which they did.

They also used AL QUEDA to do it .. thus negates any argument about terrorists. Terrorists were our partners in this crime against humanity.

The attack on Libya was so blatantly vile and dispicable that it negated all efforts to rush in and attack Syria. The game Obama and NATO were playing became obvious to all the world.

My opinion is that the US has no justification to rush in and destroy nations for profit and power .. exactly as we did in Iraq .. which I'm betting that you were against.

What changed your opinion on needless wars for profit? How do you now cheer, and/or excuse such inhumanity?

In all fairness, that doesn't answer my question.

 

[blackascoal]

In all fairness, that doesn't answer my question.

I want to be fair .. so I'll try again.

Gaddafi was not the business of the United States. We murdered him for profit.

What is my personal opinion of him?

That's my opinion of Gaddafi.

Did you know that?

If not, what does it matter what your opinion of him was?

Now please answer my questions.