Indian Summer - Non P.C. Term?

Cawacko, I do not think I have heard someone use that term in years. It seems like a pretty archaic term to me, but maybe it is still used with frequency and I am just not noticing it.

I simply cannot have an opinion about it, and will leave it to native americans or others more familiar with any cultural context.


I think the priority here is to get rid of the Washington Redskins name, which seems genuinely offensive and dehumanizing, and getting rid of Colombus Day.


We use it in the South.

An Indian summer is a period of unseasonably warm, dry weather that sometimes occurs in spring and autumn in the Northern Hemisphere. Indian summers are common in North America and Asia. The US National Weather Service defines this as weather conditions that are sunny and clear with above normal temperatures, occurring May 1 to Mid-June and late-September to mid-November.
 
Cawacko, I do not think I have heard someone use that term in years. It seems like a pretty archaic term to me, but maybe it is still used with frequency and I am just not noticing it.

I simply cannot have an opinion about it, and will leave it to native americans or others more familiar with any cultural context.


I think the priority here is to get rid of the Washington Redskins name, which seems genuinely offensive and dehumanizing, and getting rid of Colombus Day.
Aren’t you in California too? It’s used all the time around here, particularly at this time of year. In fact we’re having our second Indian Summer in a row.
 
Anyone who has been to San Francisco in the summer knows how cold it can get. Mark Twain is credited with saying I never spent a winter as cold as the summer I spent in San Francisco. But our Septembers and Octobers are beautiful, which we call Indian Summers. I often wondered if someday it would be considered an offensive phrase. This past week someone wrote about it in our local paper.




Is it politically incorrect to use 'Indian summer' to describe the weather?


It's dubbed "Indian summer," and for San Francisco it's an ephemeral part of October brimming with magic light and hot, still air.

The National Weather Service defines it as any spell of warm, quiet, hazy weather that may occur in October or even November. But beyond that, we begin to run into differing definitions and diverging origin stories — some more benign than others.

When San Franciscans say "Indian summer," they tend to do so affectionately, as it represents an sunny island amid a soupy sea of year-round fog. But the etymological PC test for the term appears to stand on shaky ground by today's standards.

One theory speculates that this period of hot autumnal weather was originally communicated to settlers by Native Americans, while another bases it on conditions when Native Americans hunted. More sinister is the theory that Indian summer somehow means "false summer" like the slur "Indian giver." There is even an international theory that places its origins in the Indian Ocean with cargo ships.

So, given the mystery of its history, do people actually find the term offensive? It depends on who you ask.

"In an environment where we're struggling to be addressed with any degree of respect at all, I'm not fussed," said San Francisco Poet Laureate Kim Shuck, a member of the Cherokee Nation.

Shuck was one of dozens who pushed for and celebrated the Sept. 14 pre-dawn removal of the "Early Days" statue at Civic Center, a more than 100-year-old bronze sculpture which depicted a fallen, nearly naked American Indian lying at the feet of a vaquero and a missionary.

San Francisco State University American Indian Studies Professor Andrew Jolivette, who chaired the department until 2016, said there are a host of popular terms with negative subtext such as "circling the wagons," "Geronimo," "Indian burn," "going off the reservation" and "going on the warpath."

In particular, Jolivette finds the term "tribalism" — a word rising in popularity to signify political gridlock in Washington — to have a very pejorative subtext for Native Americans.

He said using the term Indian summer might seem innocuous, but it's really part of a larger body of normalized euphemisms that keep Indians tied to nature and an imagined past in the minds of most Americans. The term "going native" also fits into this motif.

When Jolivette hears Indian summer said aloud, "I usually cringe," he said. "It's like when people say, 'that's so ghetto' but it's not supposed to be seen as a negative thing."

The website Indigenous Corporate Training, which enumerates culturally offensive phrases that business people should use at their own risk, specifically calls this phrase out.

"Again, the inference can be that all Indians are late and that an Indian summer is a late summer. Many people in response have said 'But I use this phrase in the highest respect for a beautiful time of the year,'" the post reads. "Remember that it may not be your intention to offend anyone but the phrase has a history and by using this term you may have a negative impact on the people with whom you are trying to work."

Late summer? Add that one to the list of possible meanings.

In Europe, a heat wave in the fall season can be marked by the name of a saint or with a colloquial phrase like "old woman's summer." By the 20th century, the term Indian summer had displaced European ones like St. Luke's summer, St. Martin's summer and all-hallown summer in the United States.

As the contemporary political climate in America offers revisions to both history and vernacular, it stands to reason that one day the term Indian summer could meet its social expiration date, and a new name may be needed for this little, second summer.

But for San Franciscans who endure the cold gray skies from June gloom to "Fogust," there's no need to panic — Indian summer in the city is simply known as summer.


https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Is-Indian-summer-offensive-politically-correct-13285287.php
I would argue that the term is or isn’t PC based on if the term Indian used to describe aboriginal Native Americans is PC or not? Since “Indian” is a term Europeans used to describe the Natives of the Americas as the believed they were in India.

So I’d say ask a Native American.
 
Cawacko, I do not think I have heard someone use that term in years. It seems like a pretty archaic term to me, but maybe it is still used with frequency and I am just not noticing it.

I simply cannot have an opinion about it, and will leave it to native americans or others more familiar with any cultural context.


I think the priority here is to get rid of the Washington Redskins name, which seems genuinely offensive and dehumanizing, and getting rid of Colombus Day.

I can’t agree with with you on Columbus Day. I can certainly understand why he ain’t exactly popular with the Native Americans. Columbus opened the gates to a conquest and destruction of many Native societies and culture. Columbus was not himself responsible for that. If it had not been Columbus it would have been another European explorer.

Columbus is often a victim of revisionist history but with all due respect to the calamity to Native cultures, Columbus is one of the great Mariners and explorers of human history and I have no problem honoring him as such.
 
LOL
This shit passes for intelligent thought. You are winning, liberals. Soon everyone will be as retarded as you are.
 
Aren’t you in California too? It’s used all the time around here, particularly at this time of year. In fact we’re having our second Indian Summer in a row.

I guess I am just not noticing that it is still used frequently.
I usually just hear the term "heat wave", which is generally associated here with Santa Ana winds in the fall or late summer.
 
I can’t agree with with you on Columbus Day. I can certainly understand why he ain’t exactly popular with the Native Americans. Columbus opened the gates to a conquest and destruction of many Native societies and culture. Columbus was not himself responsible for that. If it had not been Columbus it would have been another European explorer.

Columbus is often a victim of revisionist history but with all due respect to the calamity to Native cultures, Columbus is one of the great Mariners and explorers of human history and I have no problem honoring him as such.

No question he was historically significant and a great navigator.
I think what modern historical consensus is also concluding is that he was cruel and despotic to both natives and to Spanish settlers.
I am not going to lose sleep over whether we keep or ditch the holiday.
 
No question he was historically significant and a great navigator.
I think what modern historical consensus is also concluding is that he was cruel and despotic to both natives and to Spanish settlers.
I am not going to lose sleep over whether we keep or ditch the holiday.

I think the navigator was a Muslim.
 
so now we just ditch the ENTIRE ERA of Exploration ? :toilet:

more dumbing down of history by using contemporary standards to judge historical figures
 
Republicans love to be assholes, don't they? No, some words are offensive, this one is not.
Stop pretending to play the lead in Grand Torino. eyeroll

And yes" Pocahantas" Warren has Indian blood. Will Trump apologize? I'll bet not.
 
Anyone who has been to San Francisco in the summer knows how cold it can get. Mark Twain is credited with saying I never spent a winter as cold as the summer I spent in San Francisco. But our Septembers and Octobers are beautiful, which we call Indian Summers. I often wondered if someday it would be considered an offensive phrase. This past week someone wrote about it in our local paper.




Is it politically incorrect to use 'Indian summer' to describe the weather?


It's dubbed "Indian summer," and for San Francisco it's an ephemeral part of October brimming with magic light and hot, still air.

The National Weather Service defines it as any spell of warm, quiet, hazy weather that may occur in October or even November. But beyond that, we begin to run into differing definitions and diverging origin stories — some more benign than others.

When San Franciscans say "Indian summer," they tend to do so affectionately, as it represents an sunny island amid a soupy sea of year-round fog. But the etymological PC test for the term appears to stand on shaky ground by today's standards.

One theory speculates that this period of hot autumnal weather was originally communicated to settlers by Native Americans, while another bases it on conditions when Native Americans hunted. More sinister is the theory that Indian summer somehow means "false summer" like the slur "Indian giver." There is even an international theory that places its origins in the Indian Ocean with cargo ships.

So, given the mystery of its history, do people actually find the term offensive? It depends on who you ask.

"In an environment where we're struggling to be addressed with any degree of respect at all, I'm not fussed," said San Francisco Poet Laureate Kim Shuck, a member of the Cherokee Nation.

Shuck was one of dozens who pushed for and celebrated the Sept. 14 pre-dawn removal of the "Early Days" statue at Civic Center, a more than 100-year-old bronze sculpture which depicted a fallen, nearly naked American Indian lying at the feet of a vaquero and a missionary.

San Francisco State University American Indian Studies Professor Andrew Jolivette, who chaired the department until 2016, said there are a host of popular terms with negative subtext such as "circling the wagons," "Geronimo," "Indian burn," "going off the reservation" and "going on the warpath."

In particular, Jolivette finds the term "tribalism" — a word rising in popularity to signify political gridlock in Washington — to have a very pejorative subtext for Native Americans.

He said using the term Indian summer might seem innocuous, but it's really part of a larger body of normalized euphemisms that keep Indians tied to nature and an imagined past in the minds of most Americans. The term "going native" also fits into this motif.

When Jolivette hears Indian summer said aloud, "I usually cringe," he said. "It's like when people say, 'that's so ghetto' but it's not supposed to be seen as a negative thing."

The website Indigenous Corporate Training, which enumerates culturally offensive phrases that business people should use at their own risk, specifically calls this phrase out.

"Again, the inference can be that all Indians are late and that an Indian summer is a late summer. Many people in response have said 'But I use this phrase in the highest respect for a beautiful time of the year,'" the post reads. "Remember that it may not be your intention to offend anyone but the phrase has a history and by using this term you may have a negative impact on the people with whom you are trying to work."

Late summer? Add that one to the list of possible meanings.

In Europe, a heat wave in the fall season can be marked by the name of a saint or with a colloquial phrase like "old woman's summer." By the 20th century, the term Indian summer had displaced European ones like St. Luke's summer, St. Martin's summer and all-hallown summer in the United States.

As the contemporary political climate in America offers revisions to both history and vernacular, it stands to reason that one day the term Indian summer could meet its social expiration date, and a new name may be needed for this little, second summer.

But for San Franciscans who endure the cold gray skies from June gloom to "Fogust," there's no need to panic — Indian summer in the city is simply known as summer.


https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Is-Indian-summer-offensive-politically-correct-13285287.php

I'm fairly attuned to this kind of thing and try to avoid giving offense. But when you can't even clearly identify the origins of the phrase (i.e., it could refer to the Indian Ocean), it's a bit of a stretch to claim offense on behalf of one group. I'd say the same about the use of "tribalism," which was also mentioned in the article -- it never occurred to me that this had associations to the tribes of Native Americans, as opposed to the tribes of Africa, the tribes of Israel, the Celtic Tribes, Slavic Tribes, etc. It simply refers to a way of thinking aligned around loyalty to kinship groups, and isn't meant to be derogatory against any particular ethnic group today.
 
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...orities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/

Informative study results.

I like the term "exhausted" majority


According to the report, 25 percent of Americans are traditional or devoted conservatives, and their views are far outside the American mainstream. Some 8 percent of Americans are progressive activists, and their views are even less typical. By contrast, the two-thirds of Americans who don’t belong to either extreme constitute an “exhausted majority.” Their members “share a sense of fatigue with our polarized national conversation, a willingness to be flexible in their political viewpoints, and a lack of voice in the national conversation.”

I guess I'm an outlier in that majority who supports political correctness. I don't have much trouble navigating the rules.

These poor put upon people whose offensive free speech suffers the consequence of having to hear their speech is offensive. So resentful.... So aggrieved. Such snowflakes.

THey are so angry they need to drop n bombs anonymously online.
 
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Cawacko, I do not think I have heard someone use that term in years. It seems like a pretty archaic term to me, but maybe it is still used with frequency and I am just not noticing it.

I simply cannot have an opinion about it, and will leave it to native americans or others more familiar with any cultural context.


I think the priority here is to get rid of the Washington Redskins name, which seems genuinely offensive and dehumanizing, and getting rid of Colombus Day.

I'm born and raised in CA and I've never heard the term...….shrugging shoulders.
 
Good luck getting government employees to give up a paid day off. It is like Lee-Jackson Day in Virginia--sure people may be offended by it, but government workers like that 4-day weekend with paid holidays on it and Martin Luther King, Jr., Day, so it ain't gonna happen.

More places than just the government recognize those holidays.

For instance, greedy financial institutions are closed as well...…...
 
"Etymology and usage[edit]
Late-19th century Boston lexicographer Albert Matthews made an exhaustive search of early American literature in an attempt to discover who coined the expression.[2] The earliest reference he found dated from 1851. He also found the phrase in a letter written in England in 1778, but discounted that as a coincidental use of the phrase.

Later research showed that the earliest known reference to Indian Summer in its current sense occurs in an essay written in the United States in the late 1770s (probably 1778) by J. Hector St. John de Crevecoeur. The letter was first published in French. The essay remained unavailable in the United States until the 1920s.[3]

Although the exact origins of the term are uncertain,[4] it was perhaps so-called because it was first noted in regions inhabited by Native Americans ("Indians"), or because the Native Americans first described it to Europeans,[5] or it had been based on the warm and hazy conditions in autumn when Native Americans hunted.[4]

In literature and history, the term is sometimes used metaphorically. The title of Van Wyck Brooks' New England: Indian Summer (1940) suggests an era of inconsistency, infertility, and depleted capabilities, a period of seemingly robust strength that is only an imitation of an earlier season of actual strength.[6] William Dean Howells' 1886 novel "Indian Summer" uses the term to mean a time when one may recover some of the happiness of youth. The main character, jilted as a young man, leads a solitary life until he rediscovers romance in early middle age.

In British English, the term is used in the same way as in North America. In the UK, observers knew of the American usage from the mid-19th century onwards, and The Indian Summer of a Forsyte is the metaphorical title of the 1918 second volume of The Forsyte Saga by John Galsworthy. However, early 20th-century climatologists Gordon Manley and Hubert Lamb used it only when referring to the American phenomenon, and the expression did not gain wide currency in Great Britain until the 1950s. In former times such a period was associated with the autumn feast days of St. Martin and Saint Luke.[7]

In the English translation of Boris Pasternak's Doctor Zhivago, the term is used to describe the unseasonably warm weather leading up to the Great October Socialist Revolution.[8]"
 
No question he was historically significant and a great navigator.
I think what modern historical consensus is also concluding is that he was cruel and despotic to both natives and to Spanish settlers.
I am not going to lose sleep over whether we keep or ditch the holiday.

And he didn't discover America.
 
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