Playing Chicken With Our Future

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I'm not an economist. Maybe Krugman's wrong. But what if he's right?

On the Edge
By PAUL KRUGMAN
A not-so-funny thing happened on the way to economic recovery. Over the last two weeks, what should have been a deadly serious debate about how to save an economy in desperate straits turned, instead, into hackneyed political theater, with Republicans spouting all the old clichés about wasteful government spending and the wonders of tax cuts.

It’s as if the dismal economic failure of the last eight years never happened — yet Democrats have, incredibly, been on the defensive. Even if a major stimulus bill does pass the Senate, there’s a real risk that important parts of the original plan, especially aid to state and local governments, will have been emasculated.

Somehow, Washington has lost any sense of what’s at stake — of the reality that we may well be falling into an economic abyss, and that if we do, it will be very hard to get out again.

It’s hard to exaggerate how much economic trouble we’re in. The crisis began with housing, but the implosion of the Bush-era housing bubble has set economic dominoes falling not just in the United States, but around the world.

Consumers, their wealth decimated and their optimism shattered by collapsing home prices and a sliding stock market, have cut back their spending and sharply increased their saving — a good thing in the long run, but a huge blow to the economy right now. Developers of commercial real estate, watching rents fall and financing costs soar, are slashing their investment plans. Businesses are canceling plans to expand capacity, since they aren’t selling enough to use the capacity they have. And exports, which were one of the U.S. economy’s few areas of strength over the past couple of years, are now plunging as the financial crisis hits our trading partners.

Meanwhile, our main line of defense against recessions — the Federal Reserve’s usual ability to support the economy by cutting interest rates — has already been overrun. The Fed has cut the rates it controls basically to zero, yet the economy is still in free fall.

It’s no wonder, then, that most economic forecasts warn that in the absence of government action we’re headed for a deep, prolonged slump. Some private analysts predict double-digit unemployment. The Congressional Budget Office is slightly more sanguine, but its director, nonetheless, recently warned that “absent a change in fiscal policy ... the shortfall in the nation’s output relative to potential levels will be the largest — in duration and depth — since the Depression of the 1930s.”

Worst of all is the possibility that the economy will, as it did in the ’30s, end up stuck in a prolonged deflationary trap.

We’re already closer to outright deflation than at any point since the Great Depression. In particular, the private sector is experiencing widespread wage cuts for the first time since the 1930s, and there will be much more of that if the economy continues to weaken.

As the great American economist Irving Fisher pointed out almost 80 years ago, deflation, once started, tends to feed on itself. As dollar incomes fall in the face of a depressed economy, the burden of debt becomes harder to bear, while the expectation of further price declines discourages investment spending. These effects of deflation depress the economy further, which leads to more deflation, and so on.

And deflationary traps can go on for a long time. Japan experienced a “lost decade” of deflation and stagnation in the 1990s — and the only thing that let Japan escape from its trap was a global boom that boosted the nation’s exports. Who will rescue America from a similar trap now that the whole world is slumping at the same time?

Would the Obama economic plan, if enacted, ensure that America won’t have its own lost decade? Not necessarily: a number of economists, myself included, think the plan falls short and should be substantially bigger. But the Obama plan would certainly improve our odds. And that’s why the efforts of Republicans to make the plan smaller and less effective — to turn it into little more than another round of Bush-style tax cuts — are so destructive.

So what should Mr. Obama do? Count me among those who think that the president made a big mistake in his initial approach, that his attempts to transcend partisanship ended up empowering politicians who take their marching orders from Rush Limbaugh. What matters now, however, is what he does next.

It’s time for Mr. Obama to go on the offensive. Above all, he must not shy away from pointing out that those who stand in the way of his plan, in the name of a discredited economic philosophy, are putting the nation’s future at risk. The American economy is on the edge of catastrophe, and much of the Republican Party is trying to push it over that edge.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/opinion/06krugman.html?pagewanted=print
 
He's right.

It's a given that politiicans are fairly craven & calculating & will try to turn anything to political advantage, but most of that stuff should stop at the water's edge when it comes to a crisis like this. What Limbaugh & his new underlings in Congress have essentially said is this: Americans, we do not care if you lose your jobs, or have to foreclose on your homes. Trust us; it's better if we make Obama fail, so it sets up a GOP victory in 4 or 8 years. It will pass by before you know it, and you'll hopefully be able to get back on your feet once we're back in power.

From what I have seen of Obama in the last day or so, he is going on the offensive, and basically saying that this is the package, and this is what they have to vote on. It's up to Dems to step up and pass the thing, and realize that the GOP is not going along.
 
He's right.

It's a given that politiicans are fairly craven & calculating & will try to turn anything to political advantage, but most of that stuff should stop at the water's edge when it comes to a crisis like this. What Limbaugh & his new underlings in Congress have essentially said is this: Americans, we do not care if you lose your jobs, or have to foreclose on your homes. Trust us; it's better if we make Obama fail, so it sets up a GOP victory in 4 or 8 years. It will pass by before you know it, and you'll hopefully be able to get back on your feet once we're back in power.

From what I have seen of Obama in the last day or so, he is going on the offensive, and basically saying that this is the package, and this is what they have to vote on. It's up to Dems to step up and pass the thing, and realize that the GOP is not going along.

If Krugman is right though, and Obama goes along with any of this nonsense being peddled by these "centrists' like snow and Nelson, and this bill passes but it's been castrated and won't work, our lives will never be the same. It's pretty scary. Plus, the most vulnerable are going to die.
 
He's not right. He's an idiot. This sort of fearmongering is no better than when the Repubs do it on terrorism.
 
If Krugman is right though, and Obama goes along with any of this nonsense being peddled by these "centrists' like snow and Nelson, and this bill passes but it's been castrated and won't work, our lives will never be the same. It's pretty scary. Plus, the most vulnerable are going to die.

LOL. You are a sucker.
 
He's not right. He's an idiot. This sort of fearmongering is no better than when the Repubs do it on terrorism.

Everyone keeps saying that. There is no comparison.

First, it's "you're going to die" vs. "you're going to lose your job."

Second, when Republicans said that, there weren't terrorist attacks every day in the U.S. Not sure if you're keeping up, but we're losing a half million jobs a month, companies are in a hiring freeze, people are reigning in spending in a big way, and we're generally in a downward spiral.


It's not "fear mongering" to say that economy is tanking when it is.
 
Oh right, only the Democrats can save us and our future.

us American citizens can't do that on our own, no we need the big nanny guberment to SAVE US.:rolleyes:
 
He's not right. He's an idiot. This sort of fearmongering is no better than when the Repubs do it on terrorism.
Somebody told me that I should react the same way to him as I did to Bush's inane "voteforitnownownow" bailout plan. I find that I have, it is only people who can't remember being against "fearmongering" that seem to have built a memory barrier around their psyche. The depth and importance of such legislation should demand that Congress take time to think before voting, the very reason for fearmongering is to get crap passed that otherwise would never pass the smell test.

The idea that if it isn't passed "todaynownownownow" rather than oh, say, tomorrow or Tuesday means that we will be eating our pets by next week and incapable of returning from such a state forever and ever is very much a bit of fearmongering.
 
Everyone keeps saying that. There is no comparison.

First, it's "you're going to die" vs. "you're going to lose your job."

Second, when Republicans said that, there weren't terrorist attacks every day in the U.S. Not sure if you're keeping up, but we're losing a half million jobs a month, companies are in a hiring freeze, people are reigning in spending in a big way, and we're generally in a downward spiral.


It's not "fear mongering" to say that economy is tanking when it is.

Maybe you did not see this...

If Krugman is right though, and Obama goes along with any of this nonsense being peddled by these "centrists' like snow and Nelson, and this bill passes but it's been castrated and won't work, our lives will never be the same. It's pretty scary. Plus, the most vulnerable are going to die.
 
Oh right, only the Democrats can save us and our future.

us American citizens can't do that on our own, no we need the big nanny guberment to SAVE US.:rolleyes:

This from the woman who has been hiding under her bed ever since 9/11 and begging bush to save her.

Tell it walkin sister!
 
Oh right, only the Democrats can save us and our future.

us American citizens can't do that on our own, no we need the big nanny guberment to SAVE US.:rolleyes:

That's foolish. Unsurprising, but foolish.

There is almost no economist who doesn't agree that at least some sort of stimulus is needed right now.

See, here's how it works: there is an initial collapse, like we had in the fall. That's followed by companies laying people off, and more people losing their homes. As this happens, and even people who are still employed start to wonder about their own job security, spending dries up. Companies stop spending because of the uncertain future, and consumers stop spending because they've either lost their job, are afraid for it or have seen their home value plummet, if they haven't lost it. Since they don't spend, companies lose more, and lay more people off.

And so on.

Without anyone spending, the gov't has to, or it will continue.

Get it?
 
Maybe you did not see this...

That's me stating that, not Krugman, not "the democrats".

I think that when economic disaster strikes, those who have already fallen through the cracks, the very poor, the homeless, the elderly, etc, are bound to suffer more and they are not in the position to absorb those blows.

So yes, I do believe there are deaths in that kind of economic crisis, no matter the time or place they would occur.

But that is only me speaking RS, so don't be disingenious.
 
Exactly, same shit we heard about Bush's plan.
Yup. The only difference? Libertarian thinkers are still saying, "quit doing this and THINK" the left has moved to "voteforitnoworwe'llalldietomorrowespeciallythe childrenandif it wouldonlysaveonechild.." and the right is now saying, "Look at all the PORK!" instead of getting out the barbecues.
 
The right in America is in some weird state of denial; even worse than usual.

Is it that they're afraid Bush will have a Hoover-esque legacy? Because he will. There really isn't any way around it.

Strange...
 
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