Will Trump be Reelected via Electoral College or via 12th Amendment ?

[Flash]

Will Trump be Reelected via Electoral College or via 12th Amendment ?

Easy answer: Neither.

 

[IBDaMann]

The 12th Amendment says that they have voted.

Nope. I'm reading it right now and all it covers are some procedures of electors, i.e. what electors will do. The 12th Amendment does not somehow declare that State legislatures somehow cannot change their minds before the President of the Senate opens the certificates and have a different set of electors go through those same steps. All it requires is that the electors go through those steps.

... unless you see somewhere the 12th Amendment says that State legislatures lose their plenary power to choose their electors at some point before the President of the Senate opens the certificates?

So let's review ... as long as a second set of electors, or a third, or forty-fifth go through those mandatory steps specified in the 12th Amendment, it's the State legislatures and only the State legislatures who determine whose certificates are opened by the President of the Senate.

You need to think of a process to get the votes back from the Capitol Building,

Nope. Any State legislature can tell the President of the Senate prior to January 6th: "Hey, just tear up those earlier certificates; we changed our minds. We had a different set of electors go through the steps laid out in the 12th Amendment so you'll be getting a new set that supercedes the previous set. Use the new ones instead." It's that plenary power thing.

As with any election, the decision point is when the votes are cast,

This election is special. The votes are "cast" when the President of the Senate opens the certificates. If you have any doubts you'll certainly be finding out on January 6th when you are "totally surprised" by the vote happening on January 6th and not somehow having already happened.

I think we can both agree that Trump being elected President, or any result that differs from what you perceive was "voted" on December 14th, will be the proof in the putting.


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[IBDaMann]

You still have not answered my question. How does team trump get the votes back from the Capitol Building, and appoint new Electors all in 11 days?

Answered in the previous post. There is no need to "get them back." State legislatures can have a second set of electors go through the required steps and deliver a new set of certificates to the President of the Senate who can just tear up the old ones.

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[IBDaMann]

Joe Biden will receive 306 electoral votes. Trump will receive 232. This is 100% a certainty. No other outcome is possible.

This encapsulates your error right here.

Wanna bet? ����

Absolutely. It is a 100% certainty that the result of the vote on January 6th will differ because the vote hasn't happened yet and certain State legislatures are changing their minds.

I presume we're betting a large four-topping pizza of choice, yes?

 

[IBDaMann]

Nothing deprives the states of their power.

We're specifically talking about State legislatures in this case.

That process has been completed ...

Nope. Plenary power is a power and not a process. I refer you back to your statement above, that nothing can deprive any State legislature of its plenary power, not even some process that has happened. Nobody gets to say to any State legislature "process X, which is not the January 6th vote, has already happened so your plenary power is gone, expended, finit, used, ... you don't have it anymore."

They do not vote again

They haven't voted yet. They can change their minds as often as they wish prior to the vote on January 6th.

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors,"

This might involve selecting a set of electors, changing their minds and then selecting a different set, and then a different set, and then a different set. Nobody gets to say they can't.

"The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States."

The "give their votes" is the January 6th opening of the certificates which is the appointed day for all States.

We are still waiting for you to show us an example of when state legislatures voted after the electoral votes were cast in each state capitol.

Your question is bogus; it's based on the misunderstanding that the vote has somehow already happened.

 

[IBDaMann]

It will be 306-232 or very close to that number and Biden will be declared president.

I say we table this discussion until January 6th renders a very different result at which point you can explain how that's possible with the vote having "already happened."

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I say we table this discussion until January 6th renders a very different result at which point you can explain how that's possible with the vote having "already happened."

Are you certain enough about this that you'd bet your membership on this forum that you are correct? If Congress ratifies the EC and Biden is set to be inaugurated on the 20th, will you and your socks resign from JPP forever? If you accept, I'll do the same if Congress renders this "very different result" you are squawking about.

If you don't accept, then it's a clear message that you are just blowing smoke out of your ass.

 

[Nordberg]

Jan.6 there will be no electors present. Their work is done. they are scattered among the 50 states bunkered against Corona.
What happens is the Electoral College votes which are stored will be opened among the joint house and senate. The VP or the person in line after him will read the counts of the states in alphabetical order.
Then he will ask if there are objections. If so, they talk for up to 2 hours. Then they have a vote. McConnell has told his people to not object. He thinks it is silly. Many Reds will not vote for it. Then Trumpys will lose the vote and move on to the next one. It will be an embarrassment for the Repugs.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Jan.6 there will be no electors present. Their work is done. they are scattered among the 50 states bunkered against Corona.
What happens is the Electoral College votes which are stored will be opened among the joint house and senate. The VP or the person in line after him will read the counts of the states in alphabetical order.
Then he will ask if there are objections. If so, they talk for up to 2 hours. Then they have a vote. McConnell has told his people to not object. He thinks it is silly. Many Reds will not vote for it. Then Trumpys will lose the vote and move on to the next one. It will be an embarrassment for the Repugs.

Psssst! Dude, you should be making bets with these idiots, not bursting their little fantasy bubbles.

 

[Concart]

This encapsulates your error right here.


Absolutely. It is a 100% certainty that the result of the vote on January 6th will differ because the vote hasn't happened yet and certain State legislatures are changing their minds.

I presume we're betting a large four-topping pizza of choice, yes?

I'm holding a royal flush pal. A steaming plate of crow. You will choke on it. Don't expect me to save you, traitor.

 

[Flash]

Your question is bogus; it's based on the misunderstanding that the vote has somehow already happened.

No, I am talking about anytime in history that after a state has casts its electoral votes in December that the state voted to change those results by appointing different electors. The date for those electors to cast their ballots ended on December 14.

The constitutional requirement that electors vote for president and vice president by a certain date must be met by the state legislatures. They determine how electors will be chosen--not when. They are bound by the U. S. Constitution.

A state legislature must also follow its own laws and the state constitution. While a state legislature has the plenary power to choose electors, that does not mean it can choose them at any time when state laws/constitution require those states to submit those votes by a specified date.

You are making the assumption that after a state has already certified its electoral votes that the state has some reason to change its mind and vote differently than the popular vote of that state and the votes of the electors.

I assume you are hoping some state(s) will give their electoral votes to Trump although the electors voted for Biden. But that is not going to happen (regardless of whether the states have the power to do so). Such drama is possible but highly unlikely. Trump lost, get over it.

 

[Flash]

I say we table this discussion until January 6th renders a very different result at which point you can explain how that's possible with the vote having "already happened."

Ok. You can explain why no state chose a different set of electors than those it chose on December 14.

My answer would be because (1) it did not want to override the electors and popular vote; and (2) it couldn't even if it wanted to.

 

[Into the Night]

My thinking is based on the Constitution

Lie. You deny the Constitution. You have never read it.

and state and federal laws

Lie. You deny them. You have never read them.

governing the electoral college process.

The electoral college is not a process.

You obviously have a temporal-spatial misunderstanding of how the process works;

The electoral college is not a process.

otherwise, you would be able to show us some past examples of legislators voting for electors after December 14 or which legislatures are scheduled to vote between now and January 6.

No need.

Congress will meet and eventually approve the electoral votes as cast on December 14.

Nope. The vote is taken on Jan 6th. No one needs to approve a vote.

There will probably be some objections by Republican House members and senators, but they will be voted down.

You cannot foretell the future.

The issue is how many objections there will be and how long it will take to debate them and vote on each one.

Not an issue.

There is no additional state legislative votes as part of that process.

The electoral college is not a process.

If there is, perhaps you can point those out in the laws or Constitution.

See Articles I and II, the 12th amendment, and the 20th amendment.

 

[Into the Night]

We understand January 6 has not happened yet. That is when Congress will meet to count and certify the electoral votes cast on December 14.

No, that is the vote.

 

[Into the Night]

If I didn't mention it before but Putin's puppet tRump was not elected by a legitimate electoral college in 2016 at violating U.S. Constitutional law that forbade installing known tyrants, bullies and a corrupt criminal such as tRump. The 2016 election should have been contested and those faithful electors should have done their job instead of being traitors against anything of a American nature.

Irrational. You can't argue both sides of a paradox.

 

[Into the Night]

The 12th Amendment says that they have voted.

No, it doesn't. The 12 amendment doesn't say anyone has voted.

The Electors vote on December 14th.

Nope. Jan 6th.

The votes are sent to The Capitol Building where they are counted on January 6th.

That is the vote.

The legislator does not vote,

Yes it does. It chooses the electors.

but they could [possibly]choose who the Electors are...

That is how they vote.

But that would be before the Electors voted on December 14th.

The vote is on Jan 6th.

You need to think of a process to get the votes back from the Capitol Building,

No need. States can change their vote anytime up to Jan 6th.

and then appoint new Electors to vote,

No need. Already done.

all within less than two weeks.

No need. Already done.

It does not seem Constitutional,

It is. See the Constitution.

and there is definitely not enough time.

Already done.

As with any election, the decision point is when the votes are cast, and the point it is known is when the votes are counted.

The count occurs on Jan 6th.

Lets say we voted on a mayor on Monday, on Tuesday the mayor announced he was a murderer, and on Wednesday they counted the votes. The decision was made on Monday, before we knew better, but there was no way to change the decision on Wednesday.

Sure there is. If the mayor admits to murder, the election would be void. The mayor would be required to serve the penalty for his crime. Usually, another election would have to be held.

 

[Into the Night]

Ok. You can explain why no state chose a different set of electors than those it chose on December 14.

They already did.

My answer would be because (1) it did not want to override the electors and popular vote; and (2) it couldn't even if it wanted to.

You are wrong on both counts. See the Constitution of the United States.

 

[Into the Night]

One of the two of us will be shocked by the results on January 6th,

Your meltdown will be awesome. We probably won't even know who the President is after Jan 6th.

and by who is takes the Oath Of Office on January 20th.

Even that might not happen on Jan 20th.

You still have not answered my question.

Yes he has. RQAA.

How does team trump get the votes back from the Capitol Building,

No need.

and appoint new Electors all in 11 days?

Already done.

How do they get the law of what day the Electors need to cast their votes on changed?

It hasn't changed.

Remember that would require Congress to not just act for trump, but act quickly for trump.

Congress need do nothing.

Do you really think Pelosi will rush through a new Electors voting date just for trump?

Pelosi cannot choose electors.

 

[Into the Night]

Not according to the Constitution

Correct. According to current federal law.

Congress picked December 14th. You need to get that law changed.

Nope. It's Jan 6th.

So lets look at the steps I see you as needing to do:

None.

1) Convince the state legislators to ask for the ballots back from the Capitol Building.

No need.

2) Convince the Congress to return the ballots.

No need.

3) Convince the Congress to set a new date for the Electors to meet.

No need.

4) Convince the Supreme Court to allow an unconstitutional ex post facto date change.

No need and unconstitutional.

5) Convince the state legislators to appoint new Electors.

Already done.

6) Make sure the new Electors vote for trump.

Already done.

You need to get all this done in 11 days, in the middle of a holiday.

Already done.

And at least two of those steps would require Pelosi to not just work to get trump elected, but do unbelievably hard things to get him elected. Things I would not expect her to do to get someone she supported elected.

Pelosi need do nothing.

Can you see why I am not worried? If you want me to be worried, start explaining how you could even get any of these things done.

You are apparently hallucinating again.

 

[Into the Night]

Joe Biden will receive 306 electoral votes. Trump will receive 232. This is 100% a certainty. No other outcome is possible. Wanna bet? ����

You cannot foretell the future.