There is no black & white

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I keep reading and hoping, but the forum goers seem to insists that whatever party they back is innocent and the other side is the bastion of evil.


Come on folks, as long as we keep fighting like this we will not accomplish a damned thing. I am not talking about compromising principles. But I AM talking about arguing those principles and getting rid of the "You liberals want a nanny state" or "Bush has destroyed the country thanks to you conservative".


Increasingly, the facts of the issues are ignored in favor of bashing or blaming the other side.

Is this what it has become?
 
It's not just what it has become, it's what it has always been and will always be.

Conflict is the nature of politics. It is the non-viloent method of resolving critical issues, although it is not always without fierce incivility.

It's not supposed to be easy. The more difficult the issue, the harder and more contentious the politics behind it.

The right has always accepted this reality, and in fact, they thrive on it. The good news is the left is starting to figure it out, thanks to Bush, Rove, Cheney.

In politics, one argument wins, the other loses .. just as it should be.
 
The problems of this country are right now 85% the fault of Republicans.

They will accept no responsibility for them and are blaming democrats on very shakey grounds.

We are a couple of months into a new Pres and they are claiming its all his fault and that they want to go right back to the ideas that nearly killed this country.

How in the HELL can we get anything done with people like this tying anchors to this country and trying to kill any idea that would work to save us?

I really wish we could work with them but their idea of working with others is the others lay on the ground and allow them to walk all over them.

This country is fucked up bad, they dont care.
 
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blackascoal said:
It's not just what it has become, it's what it has always been and will always be.

Conflict is the nature of politics. It is the non-viloent method of resolving critical issue, although it is not always without fierce incivility.

It's not supposed to be easy. The more difficult the issue, the harder and more contentious the politics behind it.

The right has always accepted this reality, and in fact, they thrive on it. The good news is left is starting to figure it out, thanks to Bush, Rove, Cheney.

In politics, one argument wins, the other loses .. just as it should be.
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I understand that one argument wins and one loses. I have no problem with that.

But must it always devolve to left v/s right, or dem v/s repub?

BAC, you and I have different political beliefs. And yet we agree on a good many things. You and I could accomplish things in these areas, because we have not wasted energy on "BAC you are just a socialist!" or "Sol, my brother, you are a misguided libertarian".

Maybe I am asking too much that the parties be less important that the issues and the people?
 
evince said:
Your rational Sol, the majority of republicans I talk to are not.
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But I think there are plenty of rational republicans. They just don't get noticed like the Rush Limbaughs and the Dixies of this world.

That aside, what about each representing what they think their side should be? Is the hostility what you see as the best way? Or is it a response to hostility from the other side?
 
Its all they let us have.

EVERY time I try to be understanding with one of the entrenched Rs who now populate the party they do nothing but spew hate and lies. They ignore all facts and accept no blame for their actions and ideas. I've had it with them.

Its time to steam roller over them and just do what needs to be done. This country will never be great because they will drag it down every time. All that can be hoped for is their numbers will diwndle and we may be able to be great again at some time in the distant future when facts mean something again.
 
evince said:
Its all they let us have.

EVERY time I try to be understanding with one of the entrenched Rs who now populate the party they do nothing but spew hate and lies. They ignore all facts and accept no blame for their actions and ideas. I've had it with them.

Its time to steam roller over them and just do what needs to be done. This country will never be great because they will drag it down every time. All that can be hoped for is their numbers will diwndle and we may be able to be great again at some time in the distant future when facts mean something again.
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Let them scream and rant. If one side starts responding with facts instead of blowing up, that reduces the conflict by half and makes the other side look like raving lunatics.
 
Solitary said:
I understand that one argument wins and one loses. I have no problem with that.

But must it always devolve to left v/s right, or dem v/s repub?

BAC, you and I have different political beliefs. And yet we agree on a good many things. You and I could accomplish things in these areas, because we have not wasted energy on "BAC you are just a socialist!" or "Sol, my brother, you are a misguided libertarian".

Maybe I am asking too much that the parties be less important that the issues and the people?
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Good subject my brother.

What you ask is civil, sane, and responsible, and I completely agree with you in theory. But politics in this country has become a sport and "winning" has replaced the search for solutions.

Take the latest uproar over AIG for instance. The game of politics ignores that both political parties are responsible for allowing the outrageous bonuses to happen .. but to really uncover the truth one would have to recognize the gaping hole in the concept of democracy .. MONEY. BOTH political parties dance to the same drummer, MONEY .. and both parties have been sucking off the corporate teet for a long time.

But that recognition also requires one to look at their own politics and realize that perhaps they've been played for a fool, stuck in a two-party system designed to protect the status-quo. That recognition leads to a greater frustration that they feel helpless to do anything about it. Few actually have the political courage to stand on principle and vote 3rd-party or even take a stand against someone they voted for .. so they defend the ridiculous.

We've become a nation of soundbites instead of a bastion of information.

What America needs is a political revolution where "We the People" is at its core.

You and I can often speak the same words as if they came from the same mind on many issues, then debate fiercely where we disagree. Frankly, we should feel good about ourselves because of it. Seriously. Everybody doesn't have that ability .. and therein lies the beauty. In spite of the contentious rancor that often goes on here .. some of which I participate in more than you .. there is still the beauty of intelligent, respectful politics. It makes the rancor worth enduring.
 
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Solitary said:
Let them scream and rant. If one side starts responding with facts instead of blowing up, that reduces the conflict by half and makes the other side look like raving lunatics.
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The problem is that ignoring them won't make them go away, nor does facts.

Sometimes the best defense is a spirited offense, and sometimes screaming back at them and smashing them over the head with facts works much better than a civil approach to people who do not understand nor appreciate civility.

Case in point, Iraq and Vietnam .. where screaming, shouting, and pushing back won the day.

... and you can include civil rights, women's rights, and workers rights. The politics behind them HAD to be fierce.
 
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evince said:
Limbaugh
Coulter
Palin
Beck
Savage
Cheney
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Come on, Desh. Yes, these are lunatics. But the left has them too.

Franken
Moore
Rhodes


Are you contending that no one from the right side ever does anything good? Are you saying that one party, unopposed, running this country is what is best for the people?

Maybe a forum aimed at political debate is not the place for this discussion. But it seems to be a pervasive phenomenon throughout our society.
 
I dont know rodes so I catn say but Franken in not insane and neither is Moore.

Now go look at the people I mentioned.

They all spout lies and have really creepy background and family histories.
 
blackascoal said:
The problem is that ignoring them won't make them go away, nor does facts.

Sometimes the best defense is a spirited offense, and sometimes screaming back at them and smashing them over the head with facts works much better than a civil approach to people who do not understand nor appreciate civility.

Case in point, Iraq and Vietnam .. where screaming, shouting, and pushing back won the day.

... and you can include civil rights, women's rights, and workers rights. The politics behind them HAD to be fierce.
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Your right Bac, I've had it wih being nice. Its time to whip the moneychangers.
 
Solitary said:
But I think there are plenty of rational republicans. They just don't get noticed like the Rush Limbaughs and the Dixies of this world.

That aside, what about each representing what they think their side should be? Is the hostility what you see as the best way? Or is it a response to hostility from the other side?
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That is likely due to the fact that the morons on both sides also tend to be the loudest on both sides. The rational people aren't typically deemed 'media worthy' nor do they feel the need to shout down those who disagree with them. Thus, their voices are typically lost in the chaos.
 
evince said:
I dont know rodes so I catn say but Franken in not insane and neither is Moore.

Now go look at the people I mentioned.

They all spout lies and have really creepy background and family histories.
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the above is exactly the problem Sol is talking about Desh. You ignore the lunatics in your party, while pointing to the lunatics on the right and say 'see, the Reps worship loons'.... blah blah blah.
 
blackascoal said:
The problem is that ignoring them won't make them go away, nor does facts.

Sometimes the best defense is a spirited offense, and sometimes screaming back at them and smashing them over the head with facts works much better than a civil approach to people who do not understand nor appreciate civility.

Case in point, Iraq and Vietnam .. where screaming, shouting, and pushing back won the day.

... and you can include civil rights, women's rights, and workers rights. The politics behind them HAD to be fierce.
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You make a good point about when ranting and screaming accomplish things.

But these days, the first response seems to be hostility.

The people and their needs are not the concern. It is defeating those damned (insert "enemy" party here)


The dems have some good people and some crooks. The repubs have some good people and some crooks.



Wouldn't working towards the time when a rational conservative and a rational liberal could sit down and hash out a problem be a good thing?

Have them work out good solid programs to do what needs to be done, and do it with the least tax money and least intrusion into private lives.
 
evince said:
Your right Bac, I've had it wih being nice. Its time to whip the moneychangers.
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So its about "whipping" now instead of accomplishing things?

So now a victory in elections means the other side is totally irrelevant?


Thats insane.
 
Solitary said:
Come on, Desh. Yes, these are lunatics. But the left has them too.

Franken
Moore
Rhodes


Are you contending that no one from the right side ever does anything good? Are you saying that one party, unopposed, running this country is what is best for the people?

Maybe a forum aimed at political debate is not the place for this discussion. But it seems to be a pervasive phenomenon throughout our society.
Click to expand...
I've tried this discussion with Desh before. I hope you have some luck, but there is nothing an R can do that is right in her opinion. She'll talk about how she's "compromised" in the past and is "tired" of it and how it is time to punish people for having a different political perspective than hers.

Good luck man.
 
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