Coercive Interrogations Worked

Canceled2

Banned
Obama's intelligence chief admits the value of tough techniques.
by Stephen F. Hayes
04/22/2009 12:00:00 AM

Admiral Dennis Blair, the top intelligence official in the United States, thanks to his nomination by Barack Obama, believes that the coercive interrogation methods outlawed by his boss produced "high-value information" and gave the U.S. government a "deeper understanding of the al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country." He included those assessments in a letter distributed inside the intelligence community last Thursday, the same day Obama declassified and released portions of Justice Department memos setting out guidelines for those interrogations.

That letter from Blair served as the basis for a public statement that his office put out that same day. But the DNI's conclusions about the results of coercive interrogations--in effect, that they worked--were taken out of Blair's public statement. A spokesman for the DNI told the New York Times that the missing material was cut for reasons of space, though the statement would be posted on DNI's website, where space doesn't seem to be an issue.

Curious.

There's more. Blair's public statement differed from his letter to colleagues in another way. The letter included this language: "From 2002 through 2006 when the use of these techniques ended, the leadership of the CIA repeatedly reported their activities both to Executive Branch policymakers and to members of Congress, and received permission to continue to use the techniques." Blair's public statement made no mention of the permission granted by "members of Congress"--permission that came from members of Obama's own party.

Odd.

And then there are the memos themselves. Sections of the memos that descibe the techniques have been declassified and released. But other sections of those same memos--the parts that describe, in some detail, the value of the program--have been redacted and remain hidden from public view.

Marc Thiessen, a speechwriter for George W. Bush, had access to the full memos and read them to prepare a speech for Bush in 2006. When Thiessen looked at the redacted version released by the White House last week, he noticed something strange.

He writes: "But just as the memo begins to describe previously undisclosed details of what enhanced interrogations achieved, the page is almost entirely blacked out. The Obama administration released pages of unredacted classified information on the techniques used to question captured terrorist leaders but pulled out its black marker when it came to the details of what those interrogations achieved."

It's not just those memos. Former Vice President Dick Cheney says he has read other memos that describe the intelligence obtained by using coercive interrogation and that demonstrate its value. He has asked for them to be declassified and made public.

It is possible, I suppose, that a series of fortunate coincidences has resulted in the public disclosure of only that information that will be politically helpful to the Obama administration. It is also possible that Dick Cheney has taken up synchronized swimming in his retirement.

It wouldn't be the first time the Obama administration has politicized intelligence. Back in the early days of the administration, the New Yorker's Jane Mayer wrote an article about Obama's decision to ban some of these interrogation techniques. She spoke with White House counsel Greg Craig, who described the deliberations.

Across the Potomac River, at the C.I.A.'s headquarters, in Langley, Virginia, however, there was considerably less jubilation. Top C.I.A. officials have argued for years that so-called "enhanced" interrogation techniques have yielded lifesaving intelligence breakthroughs. "They disagree in some respect," Craig admitted. Among the hard questions that Obama left open, in fact, is whether the C.I.A. will have to follow the same interrogation rules as the military. While the President has clearly put an end to cruel tactics, Craig said that Obama "is somewhat sympathetic to the spies' argument that their mission and circumstances are different."

Despite such sentiments, Obama's executive orders will undoubtedly rein in the C.I.A. Waterboarding, for instance, has gone the way of the rack, now that the C.I.A. is strictly bound by customary interpretations of the Geneva Conventions. This decision, too, was the result of intense deliberation. During the transition period, unknown to the public, Obama's legal, intelligence, and national-security advisers visited Langley for two long sessions with current and former intelligence-community members. They debated whether a ban on brutal interrogation practices would hurt their ability to gather intelligence, and the advisers asked the intelligence veterans to prepare a cost-benefit analysis. The conclusions may surprise defenders of harsh interrogation tactics. "There was unanimity among Obama's expert advisers," Craig said, "that to change the practices would not in any material way affect the collection of intelligence."

That's interesting: "top CIA officials have argued for years that so-called 'enhanced' interrogation techniques have yielded lifesaving intelligence breakthroughs," but the team of "expert advisers" from Obama's presidential campaign apparently knows better.

All of this leads to one obvious question: Who needs intelligence professionals when you have campaign advisers?

Stephen F. Hayes, a senior writer at THE WEEKLY STANDARD, is the author of Cheney: The Untold Story of America's Most Powerful and Controversial Vice President (HarperCollins).
 
Gee, a bunch of people randomly saying "Oh it definitely produced stuff of value just trust me!!!"

Oh well, I'll take it at their word.

Now I'm going to Japan to get my vending machine used panties.
 
so stupid for us armchair warriors to pass judgment...

while i applaud those who think torture doesn't work, because in a fine world, that would be nice, you get the enemy and you don't need torture to get secrets/plans out of him that would save your people....

in the real world, that is bullshit. i doubt any of you who speak of torture have been faced with the option of tortuting to get the information necessary to save your family or not torturing to uphold the GC which doesn't even apply in terrorist situtuations....the GC was between nations, not terrorists.
 
I look forward to these specific techniques being adopted by the various American Federal and State Police forces.

Seeing as they work and all.
 
so stupid for us armchair warriors to pass judgment...

while i applaud those who think torture doesn't work, because in a fine world, that would be nice, you get the enemy and you don't need torture to get secrets/plans out of him that would save your people....

in the real world, that is bullshit. i doubt any of you who speak of torture have been faced with the option of tortuting to get the information necessary to save your family or not torturing to uphold the GC which doesn't even apply in terrorist situtuations....the GC was between nations, not terrorists.

Whether torture works or not is not the point. Your country has ruled or at least supported the idea that torture is illegal.
If waterboarding is torture it is therefore illegal. If it is illegal then the perpetrators have broken the law.
Dont tell me it worked or it didnt work, that is of no consequence.
If I invited my old buddy Dick Cheney round for dinner, tied him up and proceeded to waterboard him, would I have committed an illegal act?
If the answer is yes then what punishment should be given?
If you are convinced that waterboarding is one of those things that occasionally has to be tried then convince your judges to pass lenient sentences.
But stop this stupid debate.
 
so stupid for us armchair warriors to pass judgment...

while i applaud those who think torture doesn't work, because in a fine world, that would be nice, you get the enemy and you don't need torture to get secrets/plans out of him that would save your people....

in the real world, that is bullshit. i doubt any of you who speak of torture have been faced with the option of tortuting to get the information necessary to save your family or not torturing to uphold the GC which doesn't even apply in terrorist situtuations....the GC was between nations, not terrorists.

Simple question: Should US soldiers be tortured?
 
For the life of me I cannot conclude that any torture technique that requires it to be applied 183 times in a single month on a single person cannot be said to have "worked."

It is long past time for a new Church Commission to investigate everything from warrantless surveillance to treatment of detainees.

In any event, anyone that really wants to read all about the torture regime set up the Bush Administration should read the newly released Senate Armed Services Committee report on the matter. It is linked below (big .pdf):

http://armed-services.senate.gov/Publications/Detainee Report Final_April 22 2009.pdf
 
so stupid for us armchair warriors to pass judgment...

while i applaud those who think torture doesn't work, because in a fine world, that would be nice, you get the enemy and you don't need torture to get secrets/plans out of him that would save your people....

in the real world, that is bullshit. i doubt any of you who speak of torture have been faced with the option of tortuting to get the information necessary to save your family or not torturing to uphold the GC which doesn't even apply in terrorist situtuations....the GC was between nations, not terrorists.

Did you know that thousands of US soldiers have these techniques used on them as part of their training?

An important part of why these techniques were successful with the very few terrorists they were used on was due to a very specific reason; does anyone know why?
 
Did you know that thousands of US soldiers have these techniques used on them as part of their training?

An important part of why these techniques were successful with the very few terrorists they were used on was due to a very specific reason; does anyone know why?


Thousands? Maybe. And they have discountinued the use of the waterboard. And the techniques were reverse engineered from out SERE training which, in turn, was largely based on the torture techniques used by the Chinese during the Korean War to elicit false confessions.

And they weren't successful unless you believe that obtaining false and information is successful (except, of course, they still didn't get an good information linking Al Qaeda to Iraq).
 
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Did you know that thousands of US soldiers have these techniques used on them as part of their training?

An important part of why these techniques were successful with the very few terrorists they were used on was due to a very specific reason; does anyone know why?

Should torture be used on American soldiers?

If torture works, why didn't we find the WMD?

Colin Powell had this to say about information obtained through torture ..

"Al Qaeda continues to have a deep interest in acquiring weapons of mass destruction... I can trace the story of a sernior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these weapons to al Qaeda. Fortunately, this operative is now detained and he has told his story."

That operative was Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libbi. He was waterboarded and given Bush-approved hypothermia treatment, i.e. frozen till he could take it no longer. It was only then that he told of al Qaeda's links with Saddam's WMDs. Guess what? Libbi subsequently retracted his confession. According to ABC News, the CIA subsequently found al-Libbi "had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment."

That's because torture throughout history has been used to extract desired FALSE INFORMATION.

Confess that you're a witch or I'll hold your head under water until you think you're drowning. Lot's of people confessed .. are there any real witches?

SHOULD AMERICAN SOLDIERS BE TORTURED?
 
Thousands? No. And they have discountinued the use of the waterboard. And the techniques were reverse engineered from out SERE training which, in turn, was largely based on the torture techniques used by the Chinese during the Korean War to elicit false confessions.

And they weren't successful unless you believe that obtaining false and information is successful (except, of course, they still didn't get an good information linking Al Qaeda to Iraq).

They used the interrogation techniques on specific individuals who they knew had information that had already been disseminated through other covert channels.

Our pilots and special operations military are put through training where they have these very same techniques administered to them.

More reports are certain to be forthcoming. Here is an early one.
 
They used the interrogation techniques on specific individuals who they knew had information that had already been disseminated through other covert channels.

Our pilots and special operations military are put through training where they have these very same techniques administered to them.

More reports are certain to be forthcoming. Here is an early one.

SHOULD AMERICAN SOLDIERS BE TORTURED?
 
No, but they have been and will continue to be no matter what we do. And before anyone goes balistic, I do not believe we should be involved in torture. I do have questions about whether waterboarding itself constitutes torture but we shouldn't be pulling out fingernails, using electric shock, beating, breaking bones, etc. But again, no matter what we choose to do or not do there will continue to be torture used against us.
 
They used the interrogation techniques on specific individuals who they knew had information that had already been disseminated through other covert channels.

Our pilots and special operations military are put through training where they have these very same techniques administered to them.

More reports are certain to be forthcoming. Here is an early one.

1) They used torture techniques on individuals they believed to have information. But it doesn't really matter. Torture is torture. It is against the law. There is no means to an end test.

2) I understand that the techniques were derived from SERE training. But the SERE training is based on torture techniques used by the Chinese in the Korean War to elicit false confessions. You don;t see the problem with assuming someone has certain information (as you do above) and then subjecting them to torture techniques used by the Chinese to elicit false confessions? You're fucked in the head.

3) That's not a report. That's an op-ed. Written by a former Bush official. Sorry if I question his credibility. If you want a report on how these techniques were developed, what they were utilized for and, importantly, the objections of out militry personnel to their use, you can go here:

http://armed-services.senate.gov/Publications/Detainee Report Final_April 22 2009.pdf
 
No, but they have been and will continue to be no matter what we do. And before anyone goes balistic, I do not believe we should be involved in torture. I do have questions about whether waterboarding itself constitutes torture but we shouldn't be pulling out fingernails, using electric shock, beating, breaking bones, etc. But again, no matter what we choose to do or not do there will continue to be torture used against us.

Yes torture will not be erradicated from the earth especiually when the leader of democracy and freedom in the world condones it's use.

Powerful nations not using it and stomping those who do will be the only way it will ever be erradicated as a tool for any government.
 
I agree with Dick Chaney on this. Instead of declassifying only some documents about this case let's declassify all of them and let the chips fall where they may. :)
 
SHOULD AMERICAN SOLDIERS BE TORTURED?

Did you mean enhanced interrorgation techniques being used on our soldiers in the same manner we have used them with doctors present etc etc etc? Or did you mean having their bones broken, hot irons use on their eyes, fingernails pulled out, or how about just chopping off their heads etc etc etc?

To save innocent lives and protect society, I believe that our president must have whatever resources available to him that will accomplish that end.

"CIA Director Leon Panetta said during his confirmation hearings that even the Obama administration might use some of the enhanced techniques in a "ticking time bomb" scenario."

Article here
 
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