Why are we still debating the climate?

And it's a myth that no prediction has come true. People always point to the "ice age" scare of the '70's.

What we're seeing is exactly what environmentalists said we'd be seeing.
 
.


As always Peter Hitchens cuts through the climate crap.

PETER HITCHENS: Just like the Reds, the Greens think they're too good and noble to possibly be wrong but this country will begin to get colder and darker - just like the Soviet Union

Last week I described a long-ago Christmas in Moscow, in those days the capital city of one of the maddest ideas that ever seized the human mind. It was a crazy place, needlessly dangerous, dirty, corrupt, desperately inefficient.

One fact about it will tell you a lot. We always kept a spare can of petrol in the boot of the car (for petrol could suddenly disappear from the scarce pumps without warning) in case we needed to get to the airport in a hurry.

Because, if any of us was seriously ill, the only wise thing to do was to get the first plane out to Helsinki, where up-to-date medical treatment, modern drugs and clean conditions were available.

There we were, in the heart of a state supposedly dedicated to the ideal of human equality, and the only good hospital in the whole country was hidden behind a 15ft wall, in guarded private grounds, available solely to a few dozen members of the Communist Party Central Committee.

For years here I have warned against the Green dogma which has largely replaced Communism in the minds of the global Left. Like Communism, it has a noble goal, the saving of the planet. This goal is in fact so noble that it causes its supporters to sweep aside all doubt and restraint.

The USSR was also supposed to be dedicated to plenty but the official shops were empty. The joke described a woman going into one of these ornate places and asking one of the many unoccupied staff if they had any fish – to which the helpful reply was: ‘No, this is the shop where we don’t have any meat. The shop which doesn’t have any fish is just there across the road.’

During my time there, this was more or less an accurate account of real life. If you wanted meat, then the black market was where you went – except for the privileged Communists, who had their own special shops and supplies.

The point of this story is not to dance on the grave of the Soviet Union. It is dead and gone. It is to warn against the creation of another society, just as stupid, and equally driven by ideas which look good and nice at the beginning.

For years here I have warned against the Green dogma which has largely replaced Communism in the minds of the global Left. Like Communism, it has a noble goal, the saving of the planet.

This goal is in fact so noble that it causes its supporters to sweep aside all doubt and restraint. They are so good and so right that any opposition is wicked, all doubt is unforgivable. In the minds of these people, a golden future lies just beyond the next hill, provided by sunshine and windmills.

The point of this story is not to dance on the grave of the Soviet Union. It is dead and gone. It is to warn against the creation of another society, just as stupid, and equally driven by ideas which look good and nice at the beginning.

The point of this story is not to dance on the grave of the Soviet Union. It is dead and gone. It is to warn against the creation of another society, just as stupid, and equally driven by ideas which look good and nice at the beginning

Every few months for some years I have marked the wanton destruction of efficient, useful, modern coal-fired power stations – not cautiously mothballed in case they are needed again, but swiftly blown up with high explosives, relying on a certainty about the future which no sane person should claim to possess.

I have noted the folly of failing to renew or sustain our nuclear power stations, pointing out that a programme for building them would be a far better use of the cash poured into the modernisation of our unusable, grandiose Trident nuclear missile system. This is a Cold War superpower weapon, when we are no longer a superpower and the Cold War has been over for 30 years. You might as well build huge new factories dedicated to making black-and-white TV sets for export.

Now the threat I warned of has arrived. Sunshine and wind cannot power this country. So, without coal and nuclear power, we have become hopelessly reliant on the quick fix of gas-fired power stations, which are not even Green. And gas has become so expensive that all of us can now expect to pay vastly increased power bills very soon.

By next autumn, we will all be paying hard cash to sustain the dogmatic lunacy of a power elite wholly gripped with Green zealotry. Good luck organising an economic recovery while this is going on. The country will begin to get colder and darker. Because, like the Red fanaticism it replaced and which it so strongly resembles, Green zealotry never blames itself for the disasters it causes.

It goes on and on until it becomes intolerable and falls.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...like-Reds-Greens-think-theyre-nice-wrong.html
 
Last edited:
He lists exactly zero facts in that entire diatribe.

It's all just "they're zealots."

I'm sure many come across that way. Because, ya know - they don't want to lose the only place we have.
 
You're relying completely on classification as the counterpoint.
Better than a blatant lie as yours.
But while we're focusing on that, we've lost major stretches of habitat,
habitat ≠ climate
there is a mass extinction,
There have been five. If we are in a sixth it likely takes millions of years
and we have more polluted water and air.
Less in the U.S. since the '70's.
None of what we do is remotely sustainable, even in the short term..
should be good enough for the next 12 years. Isn't that when you guys say the world comes to an end?
The planet is basically screaming warnings at us, and we're not listening.
We'll be fine. I guarantee it.
 
Better than a blatant lie as yours. habitat ≠ climate There have been five. If we are in a sixth it likely takes millions of years Less in the U.S. since the '70's. should be good enough for the next 12 years. Isn't that when you guys say the world comes to an end?
We'll be fine. I guarantee it.

I haven't blatantly lied, about anything.

And what do you mean "if" w/ the mass extinction? We're in a mass extinction. That's not opinion.

I don't really know what "you guys" I'm a part of. I just care about the planet.
 
Last edited:
I haven't blatantly lied, about anything.
'Climate change' is a misnomer, totally.
And what do you mean "if" w/ the mass extinction? We're in a mass extinction. That's not opinion.
OK. Then you have no choice but to admit the planet not only survived 5 previous mass extinctions but thrived.
I don't really know what "you guys" I'm a part of. I just care about the planet.
Me too but you seem to be for more 'worried'.
 
'Climate change' is a misnomer, totally.
OK. Then you have no choice but to admit the planet not only survived 5 previous mass extinctions but thrived.
Me too but you seem to be for more 'worried'.

Well, that's cool. I did think after I posted the thread that "climate" was too much of a buzzword, and not completely accurate for the discussion I was going for.

And you're 100% correct. Earth will be fine, regardless. The earth always recovers, in some form or another, and will survive until the sun burns out.
 
Fuckwit on steroids.

Run tom run!!!

Man jailed for 35 years in Thailand for insulting monarchy



v2-e08aac0cbbd638726498ba981c4006a2_b.jpg
 
This is what the right does. They go for "gotchas"
Hey...they are YOUR 'gotchas'.
instead of solutions.
Solution to what?
Do you acknowledge the problem?
Define The Problem.
Do you think going for a quick drive-by "gotcha" solves the problem?
What problem? Define The Problem.
To answer, I conserve as much as I can.
You are lying, both to yourself and to others.
But it's as token as it could be, just as it would w/ any individual. Systemic change is what is needed.
Such as? Fascism? No thanks.
You're concerned about immigration. Are you working the border?
No. I am, however, supporting the border patrol and Trump's efforts to complete the wall, despite Democrats trying to block it. I also report to the INS those businesses and individuals hiring illegal immigrants, violating both State and federal law.
 
.

The Imaginary Climate Crisis – How can we Change the Message?


Richard S. Lindzen, Professor Emeritus of Atmospheric Sciences, MIT

For about 33 years, many of us have been battling against climate hysteria. We have correctly noted

•The exaggerated sensitivity,
•The role of other processes and natural internal variability,
•The inconsistency with the paleoclimate record,
•The absence of evidence for increased extremes, hurricanes, etc. and so on.

We have also pointed out the very real benefits of CO2 and even of modest warming. And, as concerns government policies, we have been pretty ineffective. Indeed our efforts have done little other than to show (incorrectly) that we take the threat scenario seriously. In this talk, I want to make a tentative analysis of our failure.

In punching away at the clear shortcomings of the narrative of climate alarm, we have, perhaps, missed the most serious shortcoming: namely, that the whole narrative is pretty absurd. Of course, many people (though by no means all) have great difficulty entertaining this possibility. They can’t believe that something so absurd could gain such universal acceptance. Consider the following situation. Your physician declares that your complete physical will consist in simply taking your temperature. This would immediately suggest something wrong with your physician. He further claims that if your temperature is 37.3C rather than between 36.1C and 37.2C you must be put on life support. Now you know he is certifiably insane. The same situation for climate (a comparably complex system with a much more poorly defined index, globally averaged temperature anomaly) is considered ‘settled science.’

In case you are wondering why this index is remarkably poor. I suspect that many people believe that there is an instrument that measures the Earth’s temperature. As most of you know, that is not how the record was obtained.

Obviously, the concept of an average surface temperature is meaningless. One can’t very well average the Dead Sea with Mt. Everest. Instead, one takes 30 year annual or seasonal means at each station and averages the deviations from these averages. The results are referred to as annual or seasonal mean anomalies. In the following figures, we see the station data in black and the mean anomalies in orange. The spread of anomalies is much larger than the rather small range of change seen in the average. While the average does show a trend, most of the time there are almost as many stations cooling as there are stations warming. The figure you are familiar with omits the data points, expands the scale by about an order of magnitude (and usually smooths the curve as well). The total change in the mean is much smaller than what we experience over a day, a week or over any longer period. This is illustrated in the fourth figure. The residue we refer to as the index is pretty negligible. It may not even be a good measure of climate at all. Instead of emphasizing this, we look for problems at individual stations. This, I would suggest, is somewhat myopic.

The fluctuations show why changes of +/- 0.2 are meaningless.

The thickness of the black line represents the total change in global mean anomaly over the past 120 years. Although this change was accompanied by the greatest increase in human welfare in history, we told that its increase by about 30% will represent doom.

If this weren’t silly enough, we are bombarded with claims that the impacts of this climate change include such things as obesity and the Syrian civil war. The claims of impacts are then circularly claimed to be overwhelming evidence of dangerous climate change. It doesn’t matter that most of these claims are wrong and/or irrelevant. It doesn’t matter that none of these claims can be related to CO2 except via model projections. In almost all cases, even the model projections are non-existent. Somehow, the sheer volume of misinformation seems to overwhelm us. In case, you retain any skepticism, there is John Kerry’s claim that climate (unlike physics and chemistry) is simple enough for any child to understand. Presumably, if you can’t see the existential danger of CO2, you’re a stupid denier.

And, in case this situation isn’t sufficiently bizarre, there is the governmental response. It is entirely analogous to a situation that a colleague, Bruce Everett, described. After your physical, your physician tells you that you may have a fatal disease. He’s not really sure, but he proposes a treatment that will be expensive and painful while offering no prospect of preventing the disease. When you ask why you would ever agree to such a thing, he says he just feels obligated to “do something”. That is precisely what the Paris Accord amounts to. However, the ‘something’ also gives governments the power to control the energy sector and this is something many governments cannot resist. Information is unlikely to change this despite the fact that even the UN’s IPCC acknowledges that their warming claims would only reduce the immensely expanded GDP by about 2-3% by the end of the century – something that is trivially manageable and hardly ‘existential.’

In trying to understand the success of this claim that climate change due to CO2 is an existential threat, I propose to look at an analogous scare: the widespread fear in the US in the early 20th Century of an epidemic of feeblemindedness. I will also return to C.P. Snow’s two-culture description in order to see why the alarmist scenario appeals primarily to the so-called educated elite rather than to the common people.

Over twenty five years ago, I wrote a paper comparing the panic in the US in the early 1920’s over an alleged epidemic of feeblemindedness with the current fear of cataclysmic climate change. ((1996) Science and politics: global warming and eugenics. in Risks, Costs, and Lives Saved, R. Hahn, editor, Oxford University Press, New York, 267pp (Chapter 5, 85-103))

During this early period, the counterpart of Environmentalism was Eugenics. Instead of climate physics as the underlying science, we had genetics. And instead of overturning the energy economy, we had immigration restriction. Both advocacy movements were characteristically concerned with purity: environmentalism with the purity of the environment, eugenics with the purity of the gene pool. Interestingly, Eugenics did not start with a focus on genes. It was started around 1880 by biometricians who used statistical analysis to study human evolution. Among them were some of the founders of modern statistics like Pearson and Fisher. Given the mathematically sophisticated origin of the movement, it should come as no surprise that it didn’t really catch on. It only became popular and fashionable when Mendelian genetics was rediscovered around 1900, and things like feeble mindedness were suggested to be associated with a single recessive gene. It is pretty clear that such movements need an easily understood, allegedly scientific but actually pretty absurd narrative. The people needing such narratives are not the ordinary citizen, but rather our educated elites. Prominent supporters of eugenics included Theodore Roosevelt, Margaret Sanger, the racist founder of Planned Parenthood, the Bishop of Ripon, George Bernard Shaw, Havelock Ellis, and many others. The supporters also included technically adept individuals who were not expert in genetics. Alexander Graham Bell for example. They also need a policy goal. In the early 1920’s, Americans became concerned with immigration, and it was argued that America was threatened with an epidemic of feeblemindedness due allegedly to immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe.

Details of this situation are in my paper which you can request by email. The major takeaway points are the following:

Elites are always searching for ways to advertise their virtue and assert the authority they believe they are entitled to.

They view science as a source of authority rather than a process, and they try to appropriate science, suitably and incorrectly simplified, as the basis for their movement.

Movements need goals, and these goals are generally embedded in legislation.

The effect of legislation long outlasts the alleged science. The Immigration Reduction Act of 1924 remained until 1964.

As long as scientists are rewarded for doing so, they are unlikely to oppose the exploitation of science.
In the case of eugenics, government funding was not at issue, but private funding did play a role, and for many scientists, there was the public recognition of their relevance.

For example, Jennings, a professor of genetics at Johns Hopkins University, in his 1930 book, The Biological Basis of Human Nature states: “Gone are the days when the biologist … used to be pictured in the public prints as an absurd creature, his pockets bulging with snakes and newts. … The world … is to be operated on scientific principles. The conduct of life and society are to be based, as they should be, on sound biological maxims! … Biology has become popular!” Privately, Jennings opposed the political exploitation of genetics.

C.P. Snow’s discussion in 1959 of the two cultures suggests why it is the educated elite that is most vulnerable to the absurd narrative. Snow was an English physicist, novelist, government advisor.

Here is his description of the non-scientific educated elite.

“A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists.

Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare’s?

I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question – such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, Can you read? – not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their Neolithic ancestors would have had.”

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...ple-temperature-records&p=4867772#post4867772

The problem with the math is simpler than that.

What thermometers are being used are not uniformly distributed. They are clustered in cities and on roads (they must be serviced). Temperature can vary by as much as 20 deg F per mile. 1000 thermometers in a city tell you nothing about a town just a few miles away. Location grouping is a significant biasing factor. It must be eliminated.

Further, these thermometers are not read at the same time by the same authority. Storms move. The Earth spins, and the Sun moves across the sky. Winds shift. Nothing about the Earth or the atmosphere stays still. At the least, readings must be taken at the same time and by the same authority (the folks making and recording the readings). Time is a significant biasing factor. It must be eliminated.

You cannot use cooked data in statistical math. You must use raw data only. That raw data must be unbiased. The variance must also be declared, and the margin of error calculated from that. The margin of error value MUST accompany any summary, or the summary is meaningless.

Mathematically, anyone telling you the temperature of Earth is guessing. We simply do not have anywhere near enough instrumentation to measure it. With the variance I have chosen (20 deg F/mile, an easily observed variance), the margin of error is greater than the highest and lowest temperatures ever recorded on Earth.

Mathematically. It is guessing.
 
AGW is a distraction to me. It's the shiny object in the climate "debate." It allows detractors to focus on something unproveable, and ignore the larger crisis that is near a tipping point.

We are losing whole ecosystems at this point. We're in the middle of a mass extinction (and unlike AGW, that one is on us, without a doubt). We're losing habitat, drinkable water & breathable air at alarming rates.

None of this is even remotely sustainable, even for another decade. People used to talk about preserving the planet for our children & our children's children - but this is about us just as much as anyone.

We can't possibly be this shortsighted and careless. This is a crisis, and it's the most important and impactful crisis we have. Without a habitable planet, all of the other issues are meaningless.

This shouldn't be political. This should be the top priority for both parties, and for every world leader.

this is reasonable.

taxing fucking co2 is insane.

get the "co2 as pollutant" frame gone and things could happen.

actual pollution is bad. we can agree.
 
They have a plan for that....pay by the mile, and your car will be gps tracked every second of every day, and if the government wants to rip apart your life maybe because you are a dissident and need to be neutralized on orders from UTOPIA then they will see what you are and have been up to.

Heh. It's pretty easy to disconnect any GPS broadcasting to anyone.
 
this is reasonable.

taxing fucking co2 is insane.

get the "co2 as pollutant" frame gone and things could happen.

actual pollution is bad. we can agree.

Great response. The focus around the debate has been what we disagree on - which, I guess, is what makes it a debate.

But we all agree that we want clean air & water, and a sustainable environment. People might define that in different ways, but it's at least a starting point.
 
Define 'climate crisis'.
A crisis that is unique in human history when 24 hour news channels have nothing interesting to report and need to boost their ratings.
Not really a crisis at the moment because we have:
a. Jan. 6, Jan. 6, Jan. 6
b. Record # of COVID cases ( irrelevant that they are mild and will create herd immunity)
c. Right wing domestic terrorism is a dire threat to our society and way of life.
 
Last edited:
AGW is a distraction to me. It's the shiny object in the climate "debate." It allows detractors to focus on something unproveable, and ignore the larger crisis that is near a tipping point.

We are losing whole ecosystems at this point. We're in the middle of a mass extinction (and unlike AGW, that one is on us, without a doubt). We're losing habitat, drinkable water & breathable air at alarming rates.

None of this is even remotely sustainable, even for another decade. People used to talk about preserving the planet for our children & our children's children - but this is about us just as much as anyone.

We can't possibly be this shortsighted and careless. This is a crisis, and it's the most important and impactful crisis we have. Without a habitable planet, all of the other issues are meaningless.

This shouldn't be political. This should be the top priority for both parties, and for every world leader.

dont-look-up.jpg

9k=
 
'Climate change' is a misnomer, totally.
I could be nothing else. Climate has no value that can 'change', and there is no such thing as a global climate.
OK. Then you have no choice but to admit the planet not only survived 5 previous mass extinctions but thrived.
Me too but you seem to be for more 'worried'.
Somehow he relates these events together, as if the Earth has never experienced a single extinction before.
 
this is reasonable.

taxing fucking co2 is insane.

get the "co2 as pollutant" frame gone and things could happen.

actual pollution is bad. we can agree.

If, and only if you can define what the pollutant is, and what it is polluting, and the source of that pollution.

CO2, of course, is a naturally occurring gas in the atmosphere, and is absolutely essential for life to exist on Earth.
It has absolutely no capability to warm the Earth.
 
Back
Top