A Pro-Afghan War Piece

cawacko

Well-known member
This was in the Journal and comes from a guy in the Brookings Instutute and a gentleman who worked with Obama forming policy. Desh should be very proud though their first two paragraphs are obviously lies because one would only oppose this war now to make Obama look bad.

Interesting article though on what's going on in Afghanistan and attitudes of people in the country.


What's Right With Afghanistan
A poll earlier this year showed Taliban support at 6%

By MICHAEL O'HANLON AND BRUCE RIEDEL
The national mood on the Afghanistan war has soured fast, and it's not hard to see why. American combat deaths have exceeded 100 for the summer, the recent Afghan election was tainted by accusations of intimidation and fraud, and Joint Chiefs Chairman Mike Mullen says the security environment there is "deteriorating."

Meanwhile, congressional leaders worry about the war's impact on the health-care debate and the Obama presidency more generally. Antiwar groups are starting to talk about "another Vietnam." Opposition is mounting to the current policy—to say nothing of possible requests for additional troops from the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley McChrystal.

The questions and concerns being raised are legitimate. Clearly, the mission has not been going well. Problems with our basic strategy, especially on the economic and development side, still need immediate attention. Moreover, our Afghan friends have a crucial role to play in both security and development, and if they fail to do so the overall warfighting and state-building effort will not succeed.

However, it is important to remember our assets, and not just our liabilities, in the coming debate over Afghanistan policy this fall. Democracies sometimes talk themselves out of keeping up the faith in tough situations, and we should avoid any such tendency towards defeatism, especially so early in the execution of the Obama administration's new military/civilian/economic strategy, which combines stronger and more widespread counterinsurgency measures with increased nation-building efforts. Indeed, the U.S., our NATO allies, and the future Afghan government—be it another Hamid Karzai presidency, or a new administration—have a number of major strengths in this mission. Consider:

• The Afghan people want success. There is frankly too much talk of Afghanistan as the graveyard of empires, as land of a xenophobic and backward people who will always resist efforts to enter the modern world. Afghans fought against the British in the 19th century and the Soviets in the 20th century because these imperialist powers were pursuing their own agendas. Today, Afghans consistently show a desire for progress, and their support for the Taliban hovers just above 6%, according to an ABC News/BBC/ARD poll taken in February; support is essentially zero among the non-Pashtun majority of the population.

• Afghans are still largely pro-American. As the war slipped away from us in recent years, U.S. favorability ratings fell too, winding up at about 30% last winter, according to polls conducted by the International Republican Institute (IRI). But the new Obama strategy, combined with at least some modest excitement about the presidential elections, has changed that. IRI polls this summer show that Afghans now give the U.S. (and NATO) favorability ratings of 60%. A similar percentage express optimism about their own future, despite all the challenges of current life.

• The Afghan Army is reasonably effective. It is too small, with roughly 90,000 total soldiers. But by most accounts, the Afghan Army is fighting well, and cooperating well with NATO forces. Gen. McChrystal's new approach to training Afghan troops will greatly strengthen and deepen this cooperation. Not only will NATO finally field enough personnel to embed with each Afghan unit in mentoring teams, but its combat units will partner with Afghans at every level on every major operation—living, planning, operating, and fighting with each other in one-to-one formal partnerships.

• Even the Afghan police show some hope. This force is too intertwined with drug dealers, underequipped, and overstressed by the hazards of combat, taking up to 100 or more fatalities a month. But it is willing to fight. As a member of an IRI observing team on election day, I was impressed with their professionalism. They did a passable job securing voting sites, and while there were many insurgent attacks that day, there were very few civilian casualties. Also the reform efforts promoted by the very able Interior Minister Hanif Atmar are showing signs of progress.

• The economy is better. Afghanistan remains poor, its economy remains dominated by opium, and the twin scourge of corruption and insecurity plagues efforts to revitalize the agricultural system. Despite all that, legal GDP has been growing up to 10% a year, health care reaches much larger segments of the population than before, and seven million children are in school (in contrast to a nationwide total of less than one million during Taliban rule). What's more, the Afghan people know these things, perhaps helping explain why they are guardedly optimistic about the future despite worsening security.

• The elections were not all bad. Whether President Karzai secures the 50% vote total needed to avoid an October runoff in the presidential race or not, the tainted election process has nonetheless had many impressive attributes. The campaign this summer was serious and focused largely on the issues. Although the state-run media favored Mr. Karzai, Afghanistan's flourishing private media provided balanced coverage, and millions watched or listened to presidential debates. Poll workers were well prepared and serious about their jobs on election day. Independent election groups are now carefully scrutinizing ballots and investigating claims of fraud, and I believe they will probably do their jobs well.

To be sure, our strategy is not perfect yet. Gen. McChrystal may not yet have the resources he needs to connect what counterinsurgency theorisists call "oil spots"—pockets of government control and stability—in the crucial south and east of the country with adequate numbers of NATO and Afghan forces. Economic donors do not yet coordinate their efforts adequately, or involve Afghan businesses sufficiently in the development effort. Pakistan's commitment to its own related fight has improved but remains tenuous. And we do not yet have a sufficiently sophisticated approach to improving law and order. We must still establish a network of courts that work with local and tribal justice systems.

These problems need to be corrected soon. Even then, it will take at least 12-18 months to see results. Our chief challenge in Afghanistan is building state institutions and that is an inherently slow process. But as we debate new changes to our strategy this fall, we would do well to remember all that is working in our favor in this crucial effort.

Mr. O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, is author of "The Science of War" (Princeton University Press, 2009) and author, with Hassina Sherjan, of the forthcoming Brookings book "The Case for Toughing It Out in Afghanistan." Mr. Riedel chaired President Obama's review on Afghanistan and Pakistan policy.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204731804574384981877588144.html
 
This was in the Journal and comes from a guy in the Brookings Instutute and a gentleman who worked with Obama forming policy. Desh should be very proud though their first two paragraphs are obviously lies because one would only oppose this war now to make Obama look bad.

Interesting article though on what's going on in Afghanistan and attitudes of people in the country.

What's Right With Afghanistan





• The Afghan people want success......

I don't know what this means. It's a slogan.

....and their support for the Taliban hovers just above 6%, according to an ABC News/BBC/ARD poll taken in February; support is essentially zero among the non-Pashtun majority of the population.

Insurgencies don't require popular support, to maintain themselves for years on end. All it takes is for us to slaughter a few civilians a week with bombs or missles, and we just immediately made enemies with about a hundred of their relatives.

• Afghans are still largely pro-American.

• The Afghan Army is reasonably effective.

• Even the Afghan police show some hope.

• The economy is better.

• The elections were not all bad.

I gotta be honest, cawacko. This sounds like the same propoganda I heard for four years of the iraq war. I have a pretty good bullshit detector, and I don't care if it comes from democrats or republicans. This sounds sounds like spin and BS.

Like the same old "just six more months" crap I heard from Neocons.

We're never going to "win" anything in afghanistan. I get the impression we're just propping up another corrupt cleptocracy. Just like in Iraq.

I wish somebody could explain to me why we need to invest billions of dollars, slaughter innocent people, and get our soldiers killed to prop up another corrupt government of warlords and cronys.

Democracy, and human rights aren't something we can teach afghanis. That's something they're going to have to figure out themselves. That shit can't ever be exported by force of arms.
 
I admittedly knew very little about Afghanistan pre 9/11. Most of us probably learned a lot more after we started attacking them. This probably sounds gay but it was after reading The Kite Runner and A Thousand Splendid Suns that I really started thinking about the country. Both those books are fiction but the author is from Afghanistan and is his stories he writes about what day to day life is like for regular people in Afghanistan.

I don't want to see us killing thousands of innocent Afghanistan people but I also don't want to see the Taliban come back into power and oppress the people the way they did. I don't want the U.S. military to have to be there but I also don't want them threatening or allowing others to threaten the U.S. Afghanistan and Pakistan happen to be an area where I've agreed with Obama on his policy. That being said I understand the legitimate concern people have about us being there and how we are fighting. I hope we make some battlefield changes and we see some positive results from them.
 
I admittedly knew very little about Afghanistan pre 9/11. Most of us probably learned a lot more after we started attacking them. This probably sounds gay but it was after reading The Kite Runner and A Thousand Splendid Suns that I really started thinking about the country. Both those books are fiction but the author is from Afghanistan and is his stories he writes about what day to day life is like for regular people in Afghanistan.

Yo dude, not gay at all! I'm in awe! It makes you seem like a bloody intellectual compared to me. I'm lucky if I have time to read a pulp fiction novel these days!

I don't want to see us killing thousands of innocent Afghanistan people but I also don't want to see the Taliban come back into power and oppress the people the way they did. I don't want the U.S. military to have to be there but I also don't want them threatening or allowing others to threaten the U.S. Afghanistan and Pakistan happen to be an area where I've agreed with Obama on his policy. That being said I understand the legitimate concern people have about us being there and how we are fighting. I hope we make some battlefield changes and we see some positive results from them.


I don't think changing battlefield tactics changes the fundamental flaws in this policy. Occupying muslim countries by military force, is just a bad idea all around. Not to mention blowing shit up, and vaporizing civilians with drone missles.

Not that I'm a geopolitical expert, but this just seems self evident to me.
 
I admittedly knew very little about Afghanistan pre 9/11. Most of us probably learned a lot more after we started attacking them. This probably sounds gay but it was after reading The Kite Runner and A Thousand Splendid Suns that I really started thinking about the country. Both those books are fiction but the author is from Afghanistan and is his stories he writes about what day to day life is like for regular people in Afghanistan.

I don't want to see us killing thousands of innocent Afghanistan people but I also don't want to see the Taliban come back into power and oppress the people the way they did. I don't want the U.S. military to have to be there but I also don't want them threatening or allowing others to threaten the U.S. Afghanistan and Pakistan happen to be an area where I've agreed with Obama on his policy. That being said I understand the legitimate concern people have about us being there and how we are fighting. I hope we make some battlefield changes and we see some positive results from them.

You should open your eyes wider good brother.

This has nothing, ZERO to do with the Afghan people or stopping them from being oppressed. ZERO

This is about American business interests .. but whatever rational you attach to it the same truth remains. America has neither the power nor authority achieve it.

There are limits to military power .. a lesson Americans have never learned.
 
Spy chief among 23 killed in Taliban suicide blast

KABUL — A Taliban suicide bomber killed Afghanistan's deputy chief of intelligence during a visit to a mosque east of Kabul on Wednesday in an attack that left 23 others dead.

The bombing, which occurred in the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, struck at the heart of Afghanistan's intelligence service and underscored the Taliban's increasing ability to carry off complex and targeted assaults.

The explosion ripped through a crowd in Laghman province just as Abdullah Laghmani, deputy chief of Afghanistan's National Directorate for Security, and other officials were leaving the main mosque in Mehterlam, 60 miles (100 kilometers) east of Kabul. Laghmani died at the scene, according to Sayed Ahmad Safi, the spokesman for the local governor.

A Taliban spokesman said a suicide bomber on foot targeted Laghmani, a key figure in Afghanistan's security services. President Hamid Karzai and the United Nations condemned the attack.

more at link
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-world/20090831/AS.Afghanistan/
 
Open your eyes.

Robert Sheer: Obama's Meaningless War

True, he doesn't seem a bit like Lyndon Johnson, but the way he's headed on Afghanistan, Barack Obama is threatened with a quagmire that could bog down his presidency. LBJ also had a progressive agenda in mind, beginning with his war on poverty, but it was soon overwhelmed by the cost and divisiveness engendered by a meaningless, and seemingly endless, war in Vietnam.

Meaningless is the right term for the Afghanistan war, too, because our bloody attempt to conquer this foreign land has nothing to do with its stated purpose of enhancing our national security. Just as the government of Vietnam was never a puppet of Communist China or the Soviet Union, the Taliban is not a surrogate for al-Qaida. Involved in both instances was an American intrusion into a civil war whose passions and parameters we never fully grasped and could not control militarily.

The Vietnamese Communists were not an extension of an inevitably hostile, unified international communist enemy, as evidenced by the fact that Communist Vietnam and Communist China are both our close trading partners today. Nor should the Taliban be considered simply an extension of a Mideast-based al-Qaida movement, whose operatives the U.S. recruited in the first place to go to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.

Those recruits included Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attack, and financier Osama bin Laden, who met in Afghanistan as part of a force that Ronald Reagan glorified as "freedom fighters." As blowback from that bizarre, mismanaged CIA intervention, the Taliban came to power and formed a temporary alliance with the better-financed foreign Arab fighters still on the scene.

There is no serious evidence that the Taliban instigated the 9/11 attacks or even knew about them in advance. Taliban members were not agents of al-Qaida; on the contrary, the only three governments that financed and diplomatically recognized the Taliban--Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Pakistan--all were targets of bin Laden's group.

To insist that the Taliban be vanquished militarily as a prerequisite for thwarting al-Qaida is a denial of the international fluidity of that terrorist movement. Al-Qaida, according to U.S. intelligence sources, has operated effectively in countries as disparate as Somalia, Indonesia, England and Pakistan, to name just a few. What is required to stymie such a movement is effective police and intelligence work, as opposed to deploying vast conventional military forces in the hope of finding, or creating, a conventional war to win. This last wan hope is what the effort in Afghanistan--in the last two months at its most costly point in terms of American deaths--is all about: marshaling massive firepower to fight shadows.

The Taliban is a traditional guerrilla force that can easily elude conventional armies. Once again the generals on the ground are insisting that a desperate situation can be turned around if only more troops are committed, as Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal did in a report leaked this week. Even with U.S. forces being increased to 68,000 as part of an 110,000-strong allied army, the general states, "The situation in Afghanistan is serious. ..." In the same sentence he goes on to say "but success is achievable."

Fortunately, Defense Secretary Robert Gates is given to some somber doubts on this point, arguing that the size of the U.S. force breeds its own discontents: "I have expressed some concerns in the past about the size of the American footprint, the size of the foreign military footprint in Afghanistan," he said. "And, clearly, I want to address those issues. And we will have to look at the availability of forces, we'll have to look at costs."

I write the word fortunately because just such wisdom on the part of Robert McNamara, another defense secretary, during the buildup to Vietnam would have led him to oppose rather than abet what he ruefully admitted decades after the fact was a disastrous waste of life and treasure: 59,000 Americans dead, along with 3.4 million Indochinese, mostly innocent civilians. I was reporting from Vietnam when that buildup began, and then as now there was an optimism not supported by the facts on the ground. Then as now there were references to elections and supporting local politicians to win the hearts and minds of people we were bombing. Then as now the local leaders on our side turned out to be hopelessly corrupt, a condition easily exploited by those we term the enemy.

Those who favor an escalation of the Afghanistan war ought to own up to its likely costs. If 110,000 troops have failed, will we need the half million committed at one point to Vietnam, which had a far less intractable terrain? And can you have that increase in forces without reinstituting the draft?

It is time for Democrats to remember that it was their party that brought America its most disastrous overseas adventure and to act forthrightly to pull their chosen president back from the abyss before it is too late.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-scheer/obamas-meaningless-war_b_274742.html
 
I admittedly knew very little about Afghanistan pre 9/11. Most of us probably learned a lot more after we started attacking them. This probably sounds gay but it was after reading The Kite Runner and A Thousand Splendid Suns that I really started thinking about the country. Both those books are fiction but the author is from Afghanistan and is his stories he writes about what day to day life is like for regular people in Afghanistan.

I don't want to see us killing thousands of innocent Afghanistan people but I also don't want to see the Taliban come back into power and oppress the people the way they did. I don't want the U.S. military to have to be there but I also don't want them threatening or allowing others to threaten the U.S. Afghanistan and Pakistan happen to be an area where I've agreed with Obama on his policy. That being said I understand the legitimate concern people have about us being there and how we are fighting. I hope we make some battlefield changes and we see some positive results from them.
You should read Caravans by James Michener. Not much has changed in Afghanistan in the 50 some years since he wrote the book.
 
You should open your eyes wider good brother.

This has nothing, ZERO to do with the Afghan people or stopping them from being oppressed. ZERO

This is about American business interests .. but whatever rational you attach to it the same truth remains. America has neither the power nor authority achieve it.

There are limits to military power .. a lesson Americans have never learned.

Again with your pipeline stupidity?
 
Yo dude, not gay at all! I'm in awe! It makes you seem like a bloody intellectual compared to me. I'm lucky if I have time to read a pulp fiction novel these days!




I don't think changing battlefield tactics changes the fundamental flaws in this policy. Occupying muslim countries by military force, is just a bad idea all around. Not to mention blowing shit up, and vaporizing civilians with drone missles.

Not that I'm a geopolitical expert, but this just seems self evident to me.
The problem with your argument is that there is a distinct difference between Iraq and Afghanistan. It was clearly demonstrated on Sept 11, 2001 that the Taliban led failed State of Afghanistan was a clear and present danger to US national security. Iraq has never met that standard and was a boondoogle from the start that not only alienated Muslim nations but non-Muslim nations that supported us after those attacks.

By expanding the war from a legitmate war against Afghanitan to a larger in scope but vaguely defined and opened ended "War on Terror" we have entraped ourselves strategically.

Prior to invading Iraq, we had the worlds sanction in our war against Afghanistan, the Taliban and Al Qaueda. We had a commited group of allies willing to share the cost in blood and treasure in rebuilding the failed state that is Afghanistan. That support was essentially lost when Bush decided to invade Iraq and now we are paying the price for one of the worst strategic decision in US history.

Without a coalition of allies the US is now having to borrow money to pay for both efforts, meaning that the US is overextended in both efforts, not a good sign from a strategic standpoint and US military enemies are perfectly aware of this. They know that alls they need to succeed is a low level insurgency and patience.

The real tragedy of Afghanistan was that it was easily winnable. The Taliban was a very unpopular regime. Alls that was required to win in Afghanistan was to simply repair and modernize their infrastructure, provide security and law and order. Something that America is superlative at doing. We had the ability, the will and the broad coalition of allies to defray the cost of rebuilding Afghanistan into a secure and prosperous state. Iraq blew all that to hell. Now the US is on it's own in Afghanistan (for all intents). We cannot afford to rebuild both Iraq and Afghanistan, particularly while going though an economic meltdown. At this point, we simply cannot afford to do what we need to do in Afghanistan to be succesful.

That presents a Hobson choice for Obama. Stay with a failing strategy of an opend ended occupation. Devise a new strategy that rebuilds Afghanistan into a secure state or withdraw from Afghanistan and risk that they collapse into a failed state again and pose the threat of becoming a danger to US national security again. Needless to say, it's a Catch-22.

The first choice is obviously not tenable. It's doubtfull that Obama can undo the damage of the Bush administration in order to build a broad coalition that would pay to rebuild Afghanistan and if we leave there's a damned good chance the Taliban will resume control of the region.

It appears to me that the TARP funds and other Keynesian tactics are reversing the recession. Obama probably needs to admit defeat on Health Care Reform and live to fight that battle another day. He needs to start focusing on Iraq and Afghanistan and he'd better start doing it soon if he wants to get re-elected.

I feel bad for Obama for inheriting the HUGE shit hole from one of the most inept Presidents in US History but hey, the buck stops at the White House and he get's paid the big bucks to solve the big problems. If he doesn't start proving he's up to the job it will soon become time to look at someone else who is.
 
The people who oppose our involvement in Afghanistan today are the same people, or their philosophical heirs, who opposed our military aid to them in the 1980's when they fought against the Soviet Union. Then, as now, the nay sayers long for some humilating defeat of the US or Afghan forces that fight a common enemy. All you do is point at deaths, as if that is the be all and end all of a war. A large number of Afghan people do support us. They still remember who it was that gave them the tools to break the back of the Soviet Union. Without us, they would never have put the Soviets out of their country. And for those that have forgotten or just don't now, the Soviet Union used their HIND helocopters to purposely destroy Afghan villages. It was not from stray bombs or mistaken targets that tens of thousands of Afghans were killed and hundreds of thousands were driven into refugee camps in Pakistan.Ultimately, the Soviet Invasion was responsible for 1 million deaths and 5 million refugees. The unfortunate truth is that after the Soviets left we abandoned the Afghans, we refused to help with rebuilding that country and we left it open to explotation from Pakistan and the Taliban. We have a moral obligation to the people of Afghanistan. Our neglect after the war created the Taliban and if we just up and leave now they will take control of the entire country once again. They will impose Sharia law on the population, a law that punishes girls for being raped if there are not enough male witnesses to confirm that she was raped.

Most people on this board KNOW that I was never in favor of the war in Iraq, but that does not mean I am a pacifist by any means. We MUST help Afghanistan become a country where the people have the ability to choose what their country will become. While I served in the Army, I became acquainted with a number of Kurds, and helped train some of their soldiers prior to the Desert Storm. There were a great many angry soldiers when George HW Bush left their shit to dangle in the wind when he had promised support. I saw in those Kurdish men, a desire to be the authors of their own destiny and I KNOW that there are a great deal of men and women in Afghanistan that have that same desire. To leave them now would be a betrayal. One that we cannot afford if we are to ever win the trust and support of people in the Muslim world. For once I want to see us bring to a solid conclusion a change we began. I am tired of the defeatest who repeatedly want to see us lose and get pleasure from them. We should have never taken our eye off Afghanistan, that is a failure to be laid solely at the feet of George W Bush. I certainly believe the only reason we went to Iraq was becuase "success" was going to be easier there and the fighting not near as hard as it is going to be in Afghanistan.

As I said earlier, the number of, or lack of dead and wounded soldiers is not the measure of success. Were that so we would have left WWII before the job was done. Things done right NEVER come easy, and no one knows that more than a US Soldier. They are prepared to die if need be. For the most part US Soldiers like helping the oppressed, like building schools for kids, hospitals for the sick and yes, even killing bad guys so they can't harm people. They do not always do their jobs without mistakes and civilians die, it has been so since one group picked up rocks and sticks and attacked another group, but the majority of soldiers don't harm civilians purposely. There are sadists in every group, including police and even Highschool Football teams, but we do not judge the whole group by them.

Too many of the people opposed to war of any kind in this country are like the America Firsters that opposed intervension in WWII. Always to worried about their own skin, their own comfort to care about helping other people and defeating bad men. Others are just plain and simple opposed to ANYTHING the US does militarily. They would find fault in liberating a death camp in Germany if it existed today because it would reflect positively on the US and our armed forces. I am tired of people that criticize ANY military action just to be opposed. I was sickened at the deaths of over 4000 service members and tens of thousands of Iraqi's because I felt the war was a sleight of hand pulled off by Bush et al. I was, and remain a supporter of the war in Afghanistan because we owe the Afghan people, we have owed them for 20 years and it is time we paid up.
 
FYI peoplez - Afghan was the source of 9/11 (aka an act of war). Should we not have gone to war against Japan, either?

Afghans didn't attack us. As far as I know, not one single afghani was ever involved in a terrorist attack against the united states. In history.

The taliban are medieval and abhorrant. But, they didn't know anything about the 9/11 attacks, and they didn't participate in it.

For anyone who is interested in reading non-american media, the taliban offered to give bin ladin up....but to a third, neutral country.

I thought we went to war to get bin ladin. I'm not sure how that got turned into a 9 year war against a nation that didn't attack us, and against a bunch of xenophobic whacko taliban who never considered targeting america. The afghans are nationalist and xenophobes. They have no history of conducting or participating in international terrorist attacks against the west.

I gave up believing what american media reports years ago. I don't think the taliban were an international threat to us. Even if they are a bunch of barbaric assholes.

I really don't see how an occupation is going to win anything. I'm not an armchair general, but it seems to me that one deals with terrorist groups with covert ops, intelligence gathering, and law enforcement. I'm not sure how occupying muslim countries that didn't attack us really plays into that formula.
 
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Afghans didn't attack us. As far as I know, not one single afghani was ever involved in a terrorist attack against the united states. In history.

The taliban are medieval and abhorrant. But, they didn't know anything about the 9/11 attacks, and they didn't participate in it.

For anyone who is interested in reading non-american media, the taliban offered to give bin ladin up....but to a third, neutral country.

I thought we went to war to get bin ladin. I'm not sure how that got turned into a 9 year war against a nation that didn't attack us, and against a bunch of xenophobic whacko taliban who never considered targeting america. The afghans are nationalist and xenophobes. They have no history of conducting or participating in international terrorist attacks against the west.

I gave up believing what american media reports years ago. I don't think the taliban were an international threat to us. Even if they are a bunch of barbaric assholes.

I really don't see how an occupation is going to win anything. I'm not an armchair general, but it seems to me that one deals with terrorist groups with covert ops, intelligence gathering, and law enforcement. I'm not sure how occupying muslim countries that didn't attack us really plays into that formula.

1) The war began in late 2001, thus it is not yet 8 years, let alone 9

2) The Taliban offered up Bin Laden in the late 1990s, not prior to the war.

3) The Taliban as you stated was a barbaric regime. They allowed Al Queda to train and base operations from Afghanistan. Given the attacks Al Queda launched against US targets, they were most certainly a threat.

4) You say you aren't an armchair general and then proceed to do just that

5) Read Soc's post above
 
Afghans didn't attack us. As far as I know, not one single afghani was ever involved in a terrorist attack against the united states. In history.

The taliban are medieval and abhorrant. But, they didn't know anything about the 9/11 attacks, and they didn't participate in it.

For anyone who is interested in reading non-american media, the taliban offered to give bin ladin up....but to a third, neutral country.

I thought we went to war to get bin ladin. I'm not sure how that got turned into a 9 year war against a nation that didn't attack us, and against a bunch of xenophobic whacko taliban who never considered targeting america. The afghans are nationalist and xenophobes. They have no history of conducting or participating in international terrorist attacks against the west.

I gave up believing what american media reports years ago. I don't think the taliban were an international threat to us. Even if they are a bunch of barbaric assholes.

I really don't see how an occupation is going to win anything. I'm not an armchair general, but it seems to me that one deals with terrorist groups with covert ops, intelligence gathering, and law enforcement. I'm not sure how occupying muslim countries that didn't attack us really plays into that formula.
You're argument is flawed. The Taliban, like it or not, was the legitimate government of Afghanistan on September 11, 2001. No government can govern with out the consent of the governed. The Taliban gave it's tacit support to Bin Ladin and Al Qaida who organized and executed the attacks on America. They were given the ultimatum to turn over those responsible for those attacks and refused. That made the Taliban government of the nation of Afghanistan, with certainty, a clear and present danger to the national security of the United States. This alone was more then adequate on both national defense and moral grounds to use military force to defend our nation from the clear and present danger they presented towards our nation. The only purpose our occupation of Afghanistan serves is to restructure their nation, as we did in Germany and Japan, to assure that they no longer present such a threat to our nation ever again. This was the most substantial failing of the Bush administration. By dropping the ball and distracting the nation with Iraq, which was not a clear and present danger, the objectives of our military intervention and occupation of Afghanistan were grossly undermined. Now victory in Afghanistan may be unatainable unless our nation decides to make the major sacrifices required.

The war on terror cannot be won. It's to ambiguous and open ended and was based on an, as we now know, a discredited academic strategy of pre-emption. The war against Afghanistan was, essentially won, based on limited military objectives until Bush snatched defeat out from the jaws of victory.
 
You're argument is flawed. The Taliban, like it or not, was the legitimate government of Afghanistan on September 11, 2001. No government can govern with out the consent of the governed. The Taliban gave it's tacit support to Bin Ladin and Al Qaida who organized and executed the attacks on America. They were given the ultimatum to turn over those responsible for those attacks and refused. That made the Taliban government of the nation of Afghanistan, with certainty, a clear and present danger to the national security of the United States. This alone was more then adequate on both national defense and moral grounds to use military force to defend our nation from the clear and present danger they presented towards our nation. The only purpose our occupation of Afghanistan serves is to restructure their nation, as we did in Germany and Japan, to assure that they no longer present such a threat to our nation ever again. This was the most substantial failing of the Bush administration. By dropping the ball and distracting the nation with Iraq, which was not a clear and present danger, the objectives of our military intervention and occupation of Afghanistan were grossly undermined. Now victory in Afghanistan may be unatainable unless our nation decides to make the major sacrifices required.

The war on terror cannot be won. It's to ambiguous and open ended and was based on an, as we now know, a discredited academic strategy of pre-emption. The war against Afghanistan was, essentially won, based on limited military objectives until Bush snatched defeat out from the jaws of victory.
This!
 
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