Russia to annex Kherson Oblast

moon said:
Yes, ' independent ' means non-NATO. Get a grip.
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The word "independent" is not in the treaty. The word "independence" is. Independence would mean the ability to decide which other countries you want to make treaties with.
It seems you think independence means other countries can dictate who you can make a treaty with and if they don't like it then they can attack you. That would be called coercion in most of the free world.
 
dukkha said:
that's the Budapest Memorandum,, It's worthless -we made sure to interfere with their revolution
and of course militarization of Uk.
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I still fail to see that installing a Russian puppet was anything to shout about. That's the real reason Putin was angry. Here's what Pravda had to say about it at the time. It's pretty obvious that they wanted to "integrate" aka take over Ukraine, it's the Russian way.

https://english.pravda.ru/world/129095-ukraine_maidan_nazi_state/
 
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Poor Richard Saunders said:
The word "independent" is not in the treaty. The word "independence" is. Independence would mean the ability to decide which other countries you want to make treaties with.
It seems you think independence means other countries can dictate who you can make a treaty with and if they don't like it then they can attack you. That would be called coercion in most of the free world.
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Your perceptions of what other people think are inaccurate. In fact, they are so inaccurate that you must warp them by design.
 
dukkha said:
Crimea wasnt an invasion. it literally happened without a shot fired and backed by referendum

I have no idea why you keep going over this -it's been exhaustively discussed.
But Russia today is a far different animal then the USSR.

In fact if Ukraine was neutral and not hostile to Ukraine - or more specifically if the USA hadn't meddled in the Maidan , Yanukovych was content not to be in either the west's or Russia strategic camp
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You have failed to make your case Russia is a peaceable neighbor, which never attacks sovereign states in Europe and central Asia. Russia has a long history of imperialism stretching back from today to the 17th century.
 
Primavera said:
I still fail to see that installing a Russian puppet was anything to shout about. That's the real reason Putin was angry. Here's what Pravda had to say about it at the time. It's pretty obvious that they wanted to "integrate" aka take over Ukraine, it's the Russian way.

https://english.pravda.ru/world/129095-ukraine_maidan_nazi_state/
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that's very damning of the Maidan. it's very detailed and I'll have to read thru it more carefully
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At night, all national TV channels of Ukraine were filming all that on the square. They were filming the episodes that would be very good for the USA, as the entire scenario had been agreed with Washington and Brussels. At first, all instructions were coming from the US Embassy in Ukraine.

"They were filming how Berkut fighters were beating students, children, but they did not show how the protesters were throwing rocks at Berkut soldiers, how they would set soldiers ablaze. On the basis of this footage that produced a bombshell effect, people started coming to Maidan. On December 1, a massacre occurred on Bankovaya Street. There were militants wielding chains, bats, Molotov cocktails and boulders. Militants started taking administrative buildings in Kiev. Nineteen administrative buildings were seized, the center of Kiev was seized too.

The capital was paralyzed. But Yanukovych was instructed not to touch the peaceful protesters, as they said. The West wanted to see the resistance growing. It was growing in waves, because Maidan did not have the support of the majority of the people. On January 19, militants attacked the Berkut fighters, who were defending the government quarter. Car tires were burning in the street, on European Square and Kreshchatik Street.

Maidan was ideologized, it was a Russophobian, Nazi Maidan that was rigidly following the direction against Russia. For Ukrainians, Russia is the enemy, "Glory to the nation, death to the enemy" - that was the directive. This hatred was infecting more and more people.



See more at https://english.pravda.ru/world/129095-ukraine_maidan_nazi_state/
 
Primavera said:
Seriously shut the fuck up, he's not Russian shit for brains. He's also passionate about Libya are you going to accuse him of being Libyan as well.
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TY. I'm sick of theUSA going around the world and getting into foreign civil wars and promoting regime chage
It's never good for us or the country we interfere with
 
moon said:
How about their security- like they asked for ?
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They had that before they started their war of territorial expansion. If they want it again, they should pull all their troops back and hand Putin over to the Hague for war crimes prosecution. Until then, let their shithole of a country suffer.
 
Cypress said:
You have failed to make your case Russia is a peaceable neighbor, which never attacks sovereign states in Europe and central Asia. Russia has a long history of imperialism stretching back from today to the 17th century.
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But for a lack of NATO expansion and a neutral Ukraine we wouldnt be here.
Both of those things are laid at the west's doorstep
 
dukkha said:
But for a lack of NATO expansion and a neutral Ukraine we wouldnt be here.
Both of those things are laid at the west's doorstep
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Incorrect.

Russia's imperialist ambitions towards Ukraine have been in play for 300 years.

The Russian nationalists have always considered Ukraine to rightfully belong to a greater Holy Rus under the guidance of Moscow and St Petersburg. They have never accepted that Ukraine could be an independent sovereign state.


There is nothing Washington, London, or Brussels did to change that 300 year old calculation.
 
Mina said:
They had that before they started their war of territorial expansion. If they want it again, they should pull all their troops back and hand Putin over to the Hague for war crimes prosecution. Until then, let their shithole of a country suffer.
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Dumbass.
 
Cypress said:
Incorrect.

Russia's imperialist ambitions towards Ukraine have been in play for 300 years.

The Russian nationalists have always considered Ukraine to rightfully belong to a greater Holy Rus under the guidance of Moscow and St Petersburg. They have never accepted that Ukraine could be an independent sovereign state.
There is nothing Washington, London, or Brussels did to change that 300 year old calculation.
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we are discussing modern Ukraine after the breakup of the USSR
 
dukkha said:
we are discussing modern Ukraine after the breakup of the USSR
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You may want to limit Russia's relationship with Ukraine to just the last few years, but that's not how it works. There are ancient grievances in play.

Putin yesterday just confirmed exactly what I told you. He is comparing himself to Peter the Great, and comparing his Ukraine war to the Great Northern War.

If you don't know what the Great Northern War was without frantically googling, it just shows you do not understand the deep history and imperialism in play here.

Peter the Great conquered the Baltic coast from Sweden, and Putin justifies that conquest because the Baltic coast was home to indigenous Slavic peoples, and rightly belonged to Russia. That is almost exactly Putin's excuse for invading Ukraine: it rightfully belongs to Russia, not a supposedly fake nation like Ukraine

It has nothing to do with NATO and everything to do with archaic Kremlin imperialism.
 
Cypress said:
You may want to limit Russia's relationship with Ukraine to just the last few years, but that's not how it works. There are ancient grievances in play.

Putin yesterday just confirmed exactly what I told you. He is comparing himself to Peter the Great, and comparing his Ukraine war to the Great Northern War.

If you don't know what the Great Northern War was without frantically googling, it just shows you do not understand the deep history and imperialism in play here.

Peter the Great conquered the Baltic coast from Sweden, and Putin justifies that conquest because the Baltic coast was home to indigenous Slavic peoples, and rightly belonged to Russia. That is almost exactly Putin's excuse for invading Ukraine: it rightfully belongs to Russia, not a supposedly fake nation like Ukraine

It has nothing to do with NATO and everything to do with archaic Kremlin imperialism.
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i dont doubt Russian nationalism and ancient land grabs, but to try to equate Peter the Great to Putin's stated existing redlines is silly. I understand Putin's internal speeches, but it's always realpolitik that calls the shots

And if you haven't been paying attention NATO expansion worried Gorby as well as other Soviet officials
Hopefully I dont have to repeat the constant lies and objections from Russia as it happened
Western NATO has never said no to Ukraine NATO expansion -in fact just the opposite

It was academic until 2014. that was the beginning of real western interference and
hardening Ukraine against Russia....a real redline that eventually blew up with a war
 
dukkha said:
i dont doubt Russian nationalism and ancient land grabs, but to try to equate Peter the Great to Putin's stated existing redlines is silly. I understand Putin's internal speeches, but it's always realpolitik that calls the shots

And if you haven't been paying attention NATO expansion worried Gorby as well as other Soviet officials
Hopefully I dont have to repeat the constant lies and objections from Russia as it happened
Western NATO has never said no to Ukraine NATO expansion -in fact just the opposite

It was academic until 2014. that was the beginning of real western interference and
hardening Ukraine against Russia....a real redline that eventually blew up with a war
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I am telling you that Putin is comparing himself to Peter the Great, and comparing his Ukraine War to the Great Northern War of imperial expansion.

I think it's hubris to compare one's self to Peter the Great, but Putin is wallowing in the depths of imperialistic delusion now.
 
Cypress said:
I am telling you that Putin is comparing himself to Peter the Great, and comparing his Ukraine War to the Great Northern War of imperial expansion.

I think it's hubris to compare one's self to Peter the Great, but Putin is wallowing in the depths of imperialistic delusion now.
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Im aware of the speeches.
Speeches dont motivate wars. It's internal politics/justifications to sell the war at home

You have to ask yourself why the redlines letters -
if Biden had taken the opportunity to negotiate would the war started?
Would Putin put himself in the position of starting a war during negotiations over Russian security? no

NATO expansion and militarization of Ukraine made the situation untenable
 
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