Obama: U.S. must reverse course with Indians

Taichiliberal said:
Where's all this venom regarding to the Shrub's dismal record on the issue. Like Wack said, until something is actually done...it's all rhetoric.
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Depends on what you call a "dismal record". Bush left us the hell alone - which when it comes to federal "help" is the better deal.

There was a time when I thought the democratic party the better option, because at least they acknowledged the difficulties of minorities in this society. But as years have gone by, I began to see the "concern" for minorities was little more than a play for votes. Sure, vote democratic because republicans ignore your plight. But I stayed with the democratic party, thinking I could push change from the inside. Ha, like the democratic leadership wants anything except mindless, bobble-headed dronebots. I worked hard as a volunteer every election - until I was told to shut up and go home because I did not like a proposed policy on reservation autonomy, and had the temerity to voice my objections. I went home, but not before stopping by the county clerks office and changing my registration from democrat to unaffiliated.

The real problem is a large part of the "plight" of minorities are due to the very programs SUPPOSEDLY designed to help them out. It's a FUCKING CROCK. The programs are designed as traps. They create a forced dependency which in turn garners a solid voting block as people are terrified their programs will go away. (How sad so many people would, after a bit of effort, find themselves better off if the programs DID go away.) If these programs are so fucking great, why is it we need MORE of them every year? The idea is to get people on their feet, not rob them of their legs.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Yeah, and you had successful advancements in Civil Rights for black folk. A matter of history, a matter of fact.

....
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Finally you admit the truth, Libby. Here's a summary of the Republican Civil Rights acts: The GOP passed their first Civil Rights Act in 1868, followed by the Acts of 1875, 1957, 1960, 1964, and 1968. All were opposed by majorities of the Democrat party.
 
Good Luck said:
Depends on what you call a "dismal record". Bush left us the hell alone - which when it comes to federal "help" is the better deal.
Click to expand...

Left the American people alone??? He involved the American people in useless wars. That is not being left alone.

Of course, he did leave the people alone while he watched everyone's savings go down the toilet


The idea is to get people on their feet, not rob them of their legs.
Click to expand...

Rob them of their legs? Tell that to the veterans in Walter Reed.

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Depends on what you call a "dismal record". Bush left us the hell alone - which when it comes to federal "help" is the better deal.

There was a time when I thought the democratic party the better option, because at least they acknowledged the difficulties of minorities in this society. But as years have gone by, I began to see the "concern" for minorities was little more than a play for votes. Sure, vote democratic because republicans ignore your plight. But I stayed with the democratic party, thinking I could push change from the inside. Ha, like the democratic leadership wants anything except mindless, bobble-headed dronebots. I worked hard as a volunteer every election - until I was told to shut up and go home because I did not like a proposed policy on reservation autonomy, and had the temerity to voice my objections. I went home, but not before stopping by the county clerks office and changing my registration from democrat to unaffiliated.

The real problem is a large part of the "plight" of minorities are due to the very programs SUPPOSEDLY designed to help them out. It's a FUCKING CROCK. The programs are designed as traps. They create a forced dependency which in turn garners a solid voting block as people are terrified their programs will go away. (How sad so many people would, after a bit of effort, find themselves better off if the programs DID go away.) If these programs are so fucking great, why is it we need MORE of them every year? The idea is to get people on their feet, not rob them of their legs.
 
Good Luck said:
Depends on what you call a "dismal record". Bush left us the hell alone - which when it comes to federal "help" is the better deal.

There was a time when I thought the democratic party the better option, because at least they acknowledged the difficulties of minorities in this society. But as years have gone by, I began to see the "concern" for minorities was little more than a play for votes. Sure, vote democratic because republicans ignore your plight. But I stayed with the democratic party, thinking I could push change from the inside. Ha, like the democratic leadership wants anything except mindless, bobble-headed dronebots. I worked hard as a volunteer every election - until I was told to shut up and go home because I did not like a proposed policy on reservation autonomy, and had the temerity to voice my objections. I went home, but not before stopping by the county clerks office and changing my registration from democrat to unaffiliated.

The real problem is a large part of the "plight" of minorities are due to the very programs SUPPOSEDLY designed to help them out. It's a FUCKING CROCK. The programs are designed as traps. They create a forced dependency which in turn garners a solid voting block as people are terrified their programs will go away. (How sad so many people would, after a bit of effort, find themselves better off if the programs DID go away.) If these programs are so fucking great, why is it we need MORE of them every year? The idea is to get people on their feet, not rob them of their legs.
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That is exactly right~~~ The incidisous nature of government programs have often done more harm than good, just note the 8th generation welfare family.
 
apple0154 said:
Left the American people alone??? He involved the American people in useless wars. That is not being left alone.

Of course, he did leave the people alone while he watched everyone's savings go down the toilet




Rob them of their legs? Tell that to the veterans in Walter Reed.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Depends on what you call a "dismal record". Bush left us the hell alone - which when it comes to federal "help" is the better deal.

There was a time when I thought the democratic party the better option, because at least they acknowledged the difficulties of minorities in this society. But as years have gone by, I began to see the "concern" for minorities was little more than a play for votes. Sure, vote democratic because republicans ignore your plight. But I stayed with the democratic party, thinking I could push change from the inside. Ha, like the democratic leadership wants anything except mindless, bobble-headed dronebots. I worked hard as a volunteer every election - until I was told to shut up and go home because I did not like a proposed policy on reservation autonomy, and had the temerity to voice my objections. I went home, but not before stopping by the county clerks office and changing my registration from democrat to unaffiliated.

The real problem is a large part of the "plight" of minorities are due to the very programs SUPPOSEDLY designed to help them out. It's a FUCKING CROCK. The programs are designed as traps. They create a forced dependency which in turn garners a solid voting block as people are terrified their programs will go away. (How sad so many people would, after a bit of effort, find themselves better off if the programs DID go away.) If these programs are so fucking great, why is it we need MORE of them every year? The idea is to get people on their feet, not rob them of their legs.
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Dude, the guy's Native American. The thread is about U.S. federal policies toward Native American's. It's not about Iraq.
 
Has anybody actually seen what the government has done "for" Native Americans?

I've tried to avoid this topic because it pisses me off.

Nobody has had more "help" from the government than the Native Tribes and nobody has felt the detrimental effects as much as those same Tribes.

It is only when they break those chains that success can be found...


Too often tribes are seen as great places to buy cigarettes because taxes are cheaper, and to gamble. Tribes are often seen to be only useful when they serve as entertainment.

The government needs to get their hands off and quit offering their fictional benevolence.
 
meme actually did recieve her GED diploma believe it or not. In the Great Hillbilly state of West Virginia.
 
Damocles said:
Has anybody actually seen what the government has done "for" Native Americans?

I've tried to avoid this topic because it pisses me off.

Nobody has had more "help" from the government than the Native Tribes and nobody has felt the detrimental effects as much as those same Tribes.

It is only when they break those chains that success can be found...

YouTube- Major Government Mistakes: Part 2 of 6

Too often tribes are seen as great places to buy cigarettes because taxes are cheaper, and to gamble. Tribes are often seen to be only useful when they serve as entertainment.

The government needs to get their hands off and quit offering their fictional benevolence.
Click to expand...

I have also avoided this thread being a Choctaw. It makes me angry when I see the plight of other Native American tribes having to deal with so much government bureaucracy. I am of the Oklahoma Choctaws and many of the folks who live around here are better off because of the efforts of the tribe. Like the youtube video says, the Choctaw Council (in Oklahoma just like Mississippi), in conjunction with the Chief, took what government monies were available and used it wisely without the constraints of having to get a "yes you can" from the government. Now the nation is thriving and really taking care of its people here.
 
Good Luck said:
NATIVE Americans, you ignorant twit. The least you can do is find out what the topic is before spouting off.
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Listen, you jackass. Native Americans also join the armed services and die so when someone comments on the negative that Obama is doing it sure as hell isn't as bad as starting unnecessary wars and sending Native Americans to their slaughter.

Besides, people like to blame the government saying they don't help the Native people all the while shooting off their mouth about how lazy the Native people are.

If it wasn't for white folk's money (taxes) being used to help them the majority of white folks wouldn't give a damn. Furthermore, like any other government program, the problem is not with helping them. The problem is with not helping them enough.

Be it money for Native Americans or welfare for other folks the government gives just enough to subsist on resulting in further demoralizing people. It's only the greedy, selfish people who believe the solution lies with less government help. All they give a damn about is their money (taxes). They couldn't care less about the Native people, the poor white people or anyone who needs assistance and that's where the problem lies.
 
apple0154 said:
Listen, you jackass. Native Americans also join the armed services and die so when someone comments on the negative that Obama is doing it sure as hell isn't as bad as starting unnecessary wars and sending Native Americans to their slaughter.

Besides, people like to blame the government saying they don't help the Native people all the while shooting off their mouth about how lazy the Native people are.

If it wasn't for white folk's money (taxes) being used to help them the majority of white folks wouldn't give a damn. Furthermore, like any other government program, the problem is not with helping them. The problem is with not helping them enough.

Be it money for Native Americans or welfare for other folks the government gives just enough to subsist on resulting in further demoralizing people. It's only the greedy, selfish people who believe the solution lies with less government help. All they give a damn about is their money (taxes). They couldn't care less about the Native people, the poor white people or anyone who needs assistance and that's where the problem lies.
Click to expand...
You don't have a foggy fucking clue what you are talking about. First, you brain dead twit, I know more about what Native Americans do for this country (despite the majority of it being outright STOLEN from us in the first place) than you ever will. Since this thread is about Obama promising new policies regarding the federal government and its treaties with Native Americans, lay off the ME bullshit. Bush fucked up there big time, but that is NOT what this thread is about. Want to talk about how ALL (not just Bush) administrations going back to the Civil War have SHIT all over the American Veteran - especially those injured in combat - start a new thread and I can add some good info for you to chew on. (though I doubt you'll admit the problem is bipartisan.)

Second, how many years have YOU spent living on a reservation? How many times have you even BEEN on a reservation? It's not about not helping people in poverty "enough", it's about "helping" them in the wrong way.

"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."

The vast majority of federal assistance programs are formulated around GIVING people what they "need" (and I use the term loosely) to live. Programs pay for, or subsidize housing. Programs that pay for food. Programs that pay for child care. There are even programs that provide CARS to people - instead of encouraging them to use public transit.

You CLAIM (quite falsely) that these program keep the recipients at subsistence level. You haven't a clue what the fuck "subsistence" is. "Subsistence" does not apply when they are provided a 3 bedroom apartment for a family of 3. "Subsistence" does not apply when the amount of food stamp given is based on the assumption they need $200 PER PERSON per month. "Subsistence" does not apply when 9 in 10 welfare households have at least one large color TV with cable services. Poor is not being given (or at least significantly help pay for) an apartment, often with bedroom for each child, food stamps enough to feed a family half again the size, and others extras so as to allow people the luxury of cable television and other non-necessities.

I can tell you what poor REALLY is, as POOR is how I grew up. POOR is a family of 6, plus a grandmother, living in a two room (that's two rooms TOTAL, not two bedrooms) shack. POOR is living off of poached deer, vegetables raised in a garden planted on squatted land with hand tools and seeds stolen from the garden of another, and grain gleaned from what the harvester missed. Poor is huddling around a home-made stove when it's 20 below zero out, burning twisted straw, cow pies and (one really bad winter) our school books. Poor is a Christmas where every single present was hand made from wood scraps stolen off the scrap piles of construction projects.

Having no direct experience with inner city impoverished, I cannot tell you where their despondent attitudes come from, though I can guess it is not vastly different from the reservations. I know for certain - and first hand - where the attitudes come from on reservations. These programs you support - the ones which "do not help enough" as you like to put it - are TRAPS. They are built (deliberately, for I cannot imagine those who wrote the regulations and strictures do not understand what the result are of their design) to discourage the individual to try and help themselves. Go out and make an extra $15 a week on a paper route - lose $100/mo from your food stamps. Get a job, lose your housing subsidy. Get a second job to make up for losing your housing subsidy, lose your daycare assistance. EVERY SINGLE federal program is designed so people who help themselves end up losing more than they contribute.

How would that make you feel? Native Americans, for the most part, have a heritage of a proud people. Your federal assistance programs have, quite literally, beaten that out of us. The man who passed out small pox infested blankets was not half the demon of those who designed the so-called "help" programs that do things like come on reservations with their "assistance" that punishes those who try to do for themselves. How much pride can one retain when they are forced to accept the handout, because the handouts prevent the reservations as a whole from building and maintaining a stable economy? How much pride can there be in the adult(s) on an inner city family when they make more by simulating they are looking for work than when they actually obtain work?

Most people WANT to feel like they've earned their way in life. The programs run by the federal government, as well as most state programs, are literally designed to PREVENT people from achieve that basic goal. As I stated before, they are traps. Once in the system, it takes a very strong willed person to bite the bullet, accept the $100 penalty for making an extra $60, and pull themselves out of the system. Most give up. And THERE is the reason for their despondency, NOT because they are not being "helped enough" but because the system will not allow them to help themselves without punishing them for it.

The system is not only designed to punish people who help themselves, but also to encourage wasteful spending. I have a niece who just moved back from New Hampshire. While in NH, she was on food stamps. Her case worker gave her and her two boys (3 and 1) $500 a month in benefits (not including WIC). Not only that, but they told her that she was EXPECTED to provide another $300/mo herself. That means the program assigns $800 per month for a family of ONE adult and two small children! My son, with a wife and 3 children, spend less than $600. I see, first hand, people in grocery stores buying things with their food stamps I cannot afford except as special treat a couple times a year.

So don't give me your "don't help them enough" bullshit. It's the wrong KIND of help that is causing the problems. But - and here is the kicker - it's the wrong kind of help ON PURPOSE. Because a trapped populace makes for a stable voting block.
 
Good Luck said:
You don't have a foggy fucking clue what you are talking about. First, you brain dead twit, I know more about what Native Americans do for this country (despite the majority of it being outright STOLEN from us in the first place) than you ever will. Since this thread is about Obama promising new policies regarding the federal government and its treaties with Native Americans, lay off the ME bullshit. Bush fucked up there big time, but that is NOT what this thread is about. Want to talk about how ALL (not just Bush) administrations going back to the Civil War have SHIT all over the American Veteran - especially those injured in combat - start a new thread and I can add some good info for you to chew on. (though I doubt you'll admit the problem is bipartisan.)

Second, how many years have YOU spent living on a reservation? How many times have you even BEEN on a reservation? It's not about not helping people in poverty "enough", it's about "helping" them in the wrong way.

"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."

The vast majority of federal assistance programs are formulated around GIVING people what they "need" (and I use the term loosely) to live. Programs pay for, or subsidize housing. Programs that pay for food. Programs that pay for child care. There are even programs that provide CARS to people - instead of encouraging them to use public transit.

You CLAIM (quite falsely) that these program keep the recipients at subsistence level. You haven't a clue what the fuck "subsistence" is. "Subsistence" does not apply when they are provided a 3 bedroom apartment for a family of 3. "Subsistence" does not apply when the amount of food stamp given is based on the assumption they need $200 PER PERSON per month. "Subsistence" does not apply when 9 in 10 welfare households have at least one large color TV with cable services. Poor is not being given (or at least significantly help pay for) an apartment, often with bedroom for each child, food stamps enough to feed a family half again the size, and others extras so as to allow people the luxury of cable television and other non-necessities.

I can tell you what poor REALLY is, as POOR is how I grew up. POOR is a family of 6, plus a grandmother, living in a two room (that's two rooms TOTAL, not two bedrooms) shack. POOR is living off of poached deer, vegetables raised in a garden planted on squatted land with hand tools and seeds stolen from the garden of another, and grain gleaned from what the harvester missed. Poor is huddling around a home-made stove when it's 20 below zero out, burning twisted straw, cow pies and (one really bad winter) our school books. Poor is a Christmas where every single present was hand made from wood scraps stolen off the scrap piles of construction projects.

Having no direct experience with inner city impoverished, I cannot tell you where their despondent attitudes come from, though I can guess it is not vastly different from the reservations. I know for certain - and first hand - where the attitudes come from on reservations. These programs you support - the ones which "do not help enough" as you like to put it - are TRAPS. They are built (deliberately, for I cannot imagine those who wrote the regulations and strictures do not understand what the result are of their design) to discourage the individual to try and help themselves. Go out and make an extra $15 a week on a paper route - lose $100/mo from your food stamps. Get a job, lose your housing subsidy. Get a second job to make up for losing your housing subsidy, lose your daycare assistance. EVERY SINGLE federal program is designed so people who help themselves end up losing more than they contribute.

How would that make you feel? Native Americans, for the most part, have a heritage of a proud people. Your federal assistance programs have, quite literally, beaten that out of us. The man who passed out small pox infested blankets was not half the demon of those who designed the so-called "help" programs that do things like come on reservations with their "assistance" that punishes those who try to do for themselves. How much pride can one retain when they are forced to accept the handout, because the handouts prevent the reservations as a whole from building and maintaining a stable economy? How much pride can there be in the adult(s) on an inner city family when they make more by simulating they are looking for work than when they actually obtain work?

Most people WANT to feel like they've earned their way in life. The programs run by the federal government, as well as most state programs, are literally designed to PREVENT people from achieve that basic goal. As I stated before, they are traps. Once in the system, it takes a very strong willed person to bite the bullet, accept the $100 penalty for making an extra $60, and pull themselves out of the system. Most give up. And THERE is the reason for their despondency, NOT because they are not being "helped enough" but because the system will not allow them to help themselves without punishing them for it.

The system is not only designed to punish people who help themselves, but also to encourage wasteful spending. I have a niece who just moved back from New Hampshire. While in NH, she was on food stamps. Her case worker gave her and her two boys (3 and 1) $500 a month in benefits (not including WIC). Not only that, but they told her that she was EXPECTED to provide another $300/mo herself. That means the program assigns $800 per month for a family of ONE adult and two small children! My son, with a wife and 3 children, spend less than $600. I see, first hand, people in grocery stores buying things with their food stamps I cannot afford except as special treat a couple times a year.

So don't give me your "don't help them enough" bullshit. It's the wrong KIND of help that is causing the problems. But - and here is the kicker - it's the wrong kind of help ON PURPOSE. Because a trapped populace makes for a stable voting block.
Click to expand...

MASSIVE APPLAUSE
 
Good Luck said:
You don't have a foggy fucking clue what you are talking about. First, you brain dead twit, I know more about what Native Americans do for this country (despite the majority of it being outright STOLEN from us in the first place) than you ever will. Since this thread is about Obama promising new policies regarding the federal government and its treaties with Native Americans, lay off the ME bullshit. Bush fucked up there big time, but that is NOT what this thread is about. Want to talk about how ALL (not just Bush) administrations going back to the Civil War have SHIT all over the American Veteran - especially those injured in combat - start a new thread and I can add some good info for you to chew on. (though I doubt you'll admit the problem is bipartisan.)

Second, how many years have YOU spent living on a reservation? How many times have you even BEEN on a reservation? It's not about not helping people in poverty "enough", it's about "helping" them in the wrong way.

"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."

The vast majority of federal assistance programs are formulated around GIVING people what they "need" (and I use the term loosely) to live. Programs pay for, or subsidize housing. Programs that pay for food. Programs that pay for child care. There are even programs that provide CARS to people - instead of encouraging them to use public transit.

You CLAIM (quite falsely) that these program keep the recipients at subsistence level. You haven't a clue what the fuck "subsistence" is. "Subsistence" does not apply when they are provided a 3 bedroom apartment for a family of 3. "Subsistence" does not apply when the amount of food stamp given is based on the assumption they need $200 PER PERSON per month. "Subsistence" does not apply when 9 in 10 welfare households have at least one large color TV with cable services. Poor is not being given (or at least significantly help pay for) an apartment, often with bedroom for each child, food stamps enough to feed a family half again the size, and others extras so as to allow people the luxury of cable television and other non-necessities.

I can tell you what poor REALLY is, as POOR is how I grew up. POOR is a family of 6, plus a grandmother, living in a two room (that's two rooms TOTAL, not two bedrooms) shack. POOR is living off of poached deer, vegetables raised in a garden planted on squatted land with hand tools and seeds stolen from the garden of another, and grain gleaned from what the harvester missed. Poor is huddling around a home-made stove when it's 20 below zero out, burning twisted straw, cow pies and (one really bad winter) our school books. Poor is a Christmas where every single present was hand made from wood scraps stolen off the scrap piles of construction projects.

Having no direct experience with inner city impoverished, I cannot tell you where their despondent attitudes come from, though I can guess it is not vastly different from the reservations. I know for certain - and first hand - where the attitudes come from on reservations. These programs you support - the ones which "do not help enough" as you like to put it - are TRAPS. They are built (deliberately, for I cannot imagine those who wrote the regulations and strictures do not understand what the result are of their design) to discourage the individual to try and help themselves. Go out and make an extra $15 a week on a paper route - lose $100/mo from your food stamps. Get a job, lose your housing subsidy. Get a second job to make up for losing your housing subsidy, lose your daycare assistance. EVERY SINGLE federal program is designed so people who help themselves end up losing more than they contribute.

How would that make you feel? Native Americans, for the most part, have a heritage of a proud people. Your federal assistance programs have, quite literally, beaten that out of us. The man who passed out small pox infested blankets was not half the demon of those who designed the so-called "help" programs that do things like come on reservations with their "assistance" that punishes those who try to do for themselves. How much pride can one retain when they are forced to accept the handout, because the handouts prevent the reservations as a whole from building and maintaining a stable economy? How much pride can there be in the adult(s) on an inner city family when they make more by simulating they are looking for work than when they actually obtain work?

Most people WANT to feel like they've earned their way in life. The programs run by the federal government, as well as most state programs, are literally designed to PREVENT people from achieve that basic goal. As I stated before, they are traps. Once in the system, it takes a very strong willed person to bite the bullet, accept the $100 penalty for making an extra $60, and pull themselves out of the system. Most give up. And THERE is the reason for their despondency, NOT because they are not being "helped enough" but because the system will not allow them to help themselves without punishing them for it.

The system is not only designed to punish people who help themselves, but also to encourage wasteful spending. I have a niece who just moved back from New Hampshire. While in NH, she was on food stamps. Her case worker gave her and her two boys (3 and 1) $500 a month in benefits (not including WIC). Not only that, but they told her that she was EXPECTED to provide another $300/mo herself. That means the program assigns $800 per month for a family of ONE adult and two small children! My son, with a wife and 3 children, spend less than $600. I see, first hand, people in grocery stores buying things with their food stamps I cannot afford except as special treat a couple times a year.

So don't give me your "don't help them enough" bullshit. It's the wrong KIND of help that is causing the problems. But - and here is the kicker - it's the wrong kind of help ON PURPOSE. Because a trapped populace makes for a stable voting block.
Click to expand...

Damn, that's real.
 
Excellent post Good Luck. This paragraph:

I can tell you what poor REALLY is, as POOR is how I grew up. POOR is a family of 6, plus a grandmother, living in a two room (that's two rooms TOTAL, not two bedrooms) shack. POOR is living off of poached deer, vegetables raised in a garden planted on squatted land with hand tools and seeds stolen from the garden of another, and grain gleaned from what the harvester missed. Poor is huddling around a home-made stove when it's 20 below zero out, burning twisted straw, cow pies and (one really bad winter) our school books. Poor is a Christmas where every single present was hand made from wood scraps stolen off the scrap piles of construction projects.
Click to expand...

This paragraph describes exactly how both my parents grew up. Dad's was a family of 9 kids & 2 parents and mom's a family of 11 kids and 2 parents. No govt. assistance then and not a single one of the 20 kids who grew up in this has ever gone on welfare or received govt. assistance.

I am all in favor of a safety net for folks who fall on hard times but incentive needs to be there for them not to come to rely on such assistance. This:

Go out and make an extra $15 a week on a paper route - lose $100/mo from your food stamps. Get a job, lose your housing subsidy. Get a second job to make up for losing your housing subsidy, lose your daycare assistance.
Click to expand...

This kind of stuff is what upsets me about the system we have.
 
Good Luck said:
You don't have a foggy fucking clue what you are talking about. First, you brain dead twit, I know more about what Native Americans do for this country (despite the majority of it being outright STOLEN from us in the first place) than you ever will. Since this thread is about Obama promising new policies regarding the federal government and its treaties with Native Americans, lay off the ME bullshit. Bush fucked up there big time, but that is NOT what this thread is about. Want to talk about how ALL (not just Bush) administrations going back to the Civil War have SHIT all over the American Veteran - especially those injured in combat - start a new thread and I can add some good info for you to chew on. (though I doubt you'll admit the problem is bipartisan.)

Second, how many years have YOU spent living on a reservation? How many times have you even BEEN on a reservation? It's not about not helping people in poverty "enough", it's about "helping" them in the wrong way.

"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."

The vast majority of federal assistance programs are formulated around GIVING people what they "need" (and I use the term loosely) to live. Programs pay for, or subsidize housing. Programs that pay for food. Programs that pay for child care. There are even programs that provide CARS to people - instead of encouraging them to use public transit.

You CLAIM (quite falsely) that these program keep the recipients at subsistence level. You haven't a clue what the fuck "subsistence" is. "Subsistence" does not apply when they are provided a 3 bedroom apartment for a family of 3. "Subsistence" does not apply when the amount of food stamp given is based on the assumption they need $200 PER PERSON per month. "Subsistence" does not apply when 9 in 10 welfare households have at least one large color TV with cable services. Poor is not being given (or at least significantly help pay for) an apartment, often with bedroom for each child, food stamps enough to feed a family half again the size, and others extras so as to allow people the luxury of cable television and other non-necessities.

I can tell you what poor REALLY is, as POOR is how I grew up. POOR is a family of 6, plus a grandmother, living in a two room (that's two rooms TOTAL, not two bedrooms) shack. POOR is living off of poached deer, vegetables raised in a garden planted on squatted land with hand tools and seeds stolen from the garden of another, and grain gleaned from what the harvester missed. Poor is huddling around a home-made stove when it's 20 below zero out, burning twisted straw, cow pies and (one really bad winter) our school books. Poor is a Christmas where every single present was hand made from wood scraps stolen off the scrap piles of construction projects.

Having no direct experience with inner city impoverished, I cannot tell you where their despondent attitudes come from, though I can guess it is not vastly different from the reservations. I know for certain - and first hand - where the attitudes come from on reservations. These programs you support - the ones which "do not help enough" as you like to put it - are TRAPS. They are built (deliberately, for I cannot imagine those who wrote the regulations and strictures do not understand what the result are of their design) to discourage the individual to try and help themselves. Go out and make an extra $15 a week on a paper route - lose $100/mo from your food stamps. Get a job, lose your housing subsidy. Get a second job to make up for losing your housing subsidy, lose your daycare assistance. EVERY SINGLE federal program is designed so people who help themselves end up losing more than they contribute.

How would that make you feel? Native Americans, for the most part, have a heritage of a proud people. Your federal assistance programs have, quite literally, beaten that out of us. The man who passed out small pox infested blankets was not half the demon of those who designed the so-called "help" programs that do things like come on reservations with their "assistance" that punishes those who try to do for themselves. How much pride can one retain when they are forced to accept the handout, because the handouts prevent the reservations as a whole from building and maintaining a stable economy? How much pride can there be in the adult(s) on an inner city family when they make more by simulating they are looking for work than when they actually obtain work?

Most people WANT to feel like they've earned their way in life. The programs run by the federal government, as well as most state programs, are literally designed to PREVENT people from achieve that basic goal. As I stated before, they are traps. Once in the system, it takes a very strong willed person to bite the bullet, accept the $100 penalty for making an extra $60, and pull themselves out of the system. Most give up. And THERE is the reason for their despondency, NOT because they are not being "helped enough" but because the system will not allow them to help themselves without punishing them for it.

The system is not only designed to punish people who help themselves, but also to encourage wasteful spending. I have a niece who just moved back from New Hampshire. While in NH, she was on food stamps. Her case worker gave her and her two boys (3 and 1) $500 a month in benefits (not including WIC). Not only that, but they told her that she was EXPECTED to provide another $300/mo herself. That means the program assigns $800 per month for a family of ONE adult and two small children! My son, with a wife and 3 children, spend less than $600. I see, first hand, people in grocery stores buying things with their food stamps I cannot afford except as special treat a couple times a year.

So don't give me your "don't help them enough" bullshit. It's the wrong KIND of help that is causing the problems. But - and here is the kicker - it's the wrong kind of help ON PURPOSE. Because a trapped populace makes for a stable voting block.
Click to expand...
Don't forget the fricking mile long red tape used to keep the tribes from creating businesses that could be the foundation of a new economy.

Few tribes have been able to break the shackles of the government and actually produce, and even those who are rich from gambling establishments feed into the negative stereotypes I listed earlier.

The native tribes are good for cheap cigarettes and entertainment, and need to be literally kept out of any actual economically productive businesses.

Nothing pisses me off more than some sanctimonious bleeding heart listing how they are going to "save" the Native Americans by "giving" them still more government "help"... The native tribes need less intervention into their lives, not more false benevolence.
 
Damocles said:
Don't forget the fricking mile long red tape used to keep the tribes from creating businesses that could be the foundation of a new economy.

Few tribes have been able to break the shackles of the government and actually produce, and even those who are rich from gambling establishments feed into the negative stereotypes I listed earlier.

The native tribes are good for cheap cigarettes and entertainment, and need to be literally kept out of any actual economically productive businesses.

Nothing pisses me off more than some sanctimonious bleeding heart listing how they are going to "save" the Native Americans by "giving" them still more government "help"... The native tribes need less intervention into their lives, not more false benevolence.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

Case in point, the benevolent feds, during the Carter administration, went into Crow Agency and built a nice carpet factory. Never mind the fact that they did no research at all as to whether a carpet factory could make a profit trying to run out of Crow Agency. They just up and decided that they need to make rugs. (The irony of THAT stereotyping is beyond comprehension!) So they get the factory finished, "give" it to the people of Crow Agency, and tell them to run the thing. Lots of big hype attached to the whole project, how they were providing REAL jobs to us savage rug makers. Of course, there were so many regulations and government bullshit attached to HOW they could run the place, they went belly up in less than a year. Then, to top things off, the local gentry made it a crusade about how Native Americans are incapable of running a business.

"Help" is not giving us what we prefer to earn for ourselves. That goes double when the "help" arrives with rules, regulations and requirements that, if one removes the flowery language, tell us to keep in our place and don't kick up a fuss.
 
Good Luck said:
You don't have a foggy fucking clue what you are talking about. First, you brain dead twit, I know more about what Native Americans do for this country (despite the majority of it being outright STOLEN from us in the first place) than you ever will. Since this thread is about Obama promising new policies regarding the federal government and its treaties with Native Americans, lay off the ME bullshit. Bush fucked up there big time, but that is NOT what this thread is about. Want to talk about how ALL (not just Bush) administrations going back to the Civil War have SHIT all over the American Veteran - especially those injured in combat - start a new thread and I can add some good info for you to chew on. (though I doubt you'll admit the problem is bipartisan.)

Second, how many years have YOU spent living on a reservation? How many times have you even BEEN on a reservation? It's not about not helping people in poverty "enough", it's about "helping" them in the wrong way.

"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."

The vast majority of federal assistance programs are formulated around GIVING people what they "need" (and I use the term loosely) to live. Programs pay for, or subsidize housing. Programs that pay for food. Programs that pay for child care. There are even programs that provide CARS to people - instead of encouraging them to use public transit.

You CLAIM (quite falsely) that these program keep the recipients at subsistence level. You haven't a clue what the fuck "subsistence" is. "Subsistence" does not apply when they are provided a 3 bedroom apartment for a family of 3. "Subsistence" does not apply when the amount of food stamp given is based on the assumption they need $200 PER PERSON per month. "Subsistence" does not apply when 9 in 10 welfare households have at least one large color TV with cable services. Poor is not being given (or at least significantly help pay for) an apartment, often with bedroom for each child, food stamps enough to feed a family half again the size, and others extras so as to allow people the luxury of cable television and other non-necessities.

I can tell you what poor REALLY is, as POOR is how I grew up. POOR is a family of 6, plus a grandmother, living in a two room (that's two rooms TOTAL, not two bedrooms) shack. POOR is living off of poached deer, vegetables raised in a garden planted on squatted land with hand tools and seeds stolen from the garden of another, and grain gleaned from what the harvester missed. Poor is huddling around a home-made stove when it's 20 below zero out, burning twisted straw, cow pies and (one really bad winter) our school books. Poor is a Christmas where every single present was hand made from wood scraps stolen off the scrap piles of construction projects.

Having no direct experience with inner city impoverished, I cannot tell you where their despondent attitudes come from, though I can guess it is not vastly different from the reservations. I know for certain - and first hand - where the attitudes come from on reservations. These programs you support - the ones which "do not help enough" as you like to put it - are TRAPS. They are built (deliberately, for I cannot imagine those who wrote the regulations and strictures do not understand what the result are of their design) to discourage the individual to try and help themselves. Go out and make an extra $15 a week on a paper route - lose $100/mo from your food stamps. Get a job, lose your housing subsidy. Get a second job to make up for losing your housing subsidy, lose your daycare assistance. EVERY SINGLE federal program is designed so people who help themselves end up losing more than they contribute.

How would that make you feel? Native Americans, for the most part, have a heritage of a proud people. Your federal assistance programs have, quite literally, beaten that out of us. The man who passed out small pox infested blankets was not half the demon of those who designed the so-called "help" programs that do things like come on reservations with their "assistance" that punishes those who try to do for themselves. How much pride can one retain when they are forced to accept the handout, because the handouts prevent the reservations as a whole from building and maintaining a stable economy? How much pride can there be in the adult(s) on an inner city family when they make more by simulating they are looking for work than when they actually obtain work?

Most people WANT to feel like they've earned their way in life. The programs run by the federal government, as well as most state programs, are literally designed to PREVENT people from achieve that basic goal. As I stated before, they are traps. Once in the system, it takes a very strong willed person to bite the bullet, accept the $100 penalty for making an extra $60, and pull themselves out of the system. Most give up. And THERE is the reason for their despondency, NOT because they are not being "helped enough" but because the system will not allow them to help themselves without punishing them for it.

The system is not only designed to punish people who help themselves, but also to encourage wasteful spending. I have a niece who just moved back from New Hampshire. While in NH, she was on food stamps. Her case worker gave her and her two boys (3 and 1) $500 a month in benefits (not including WIC). Not only that, but they told her that she was EXPECTED to provide another $300/mo herself. That means the program assigns $800 per month for a family of ONE adult and two small children! My son, with a wife and 3 children, spend less than $600. I see, first hand, people in grocery stores buying things with their food stamps I cannot afford except as special treat a couple times a year.

So don't give me your "don't help them enough" bullshit. It's the wrong KIND of help that is causing the problems. But - and here is the kicker - it's the wrong kind of help ON PURPOSE. Because a trapped populace makes for a stable voting block.
Click to expand...

"Operation Morning Star is a non-profit charitable organization that identifies and focuses on the most important needs of poverty affected Native Americans located on the Cheyenne River, Rosebud, Pine Ridge, and Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Indian Nations.

OMS seeks to address the critical need for housing, food, and non-contaminated water due to historical and current economic conditions that are prevalent on these Indian Reservations located in North and South Dakota.

The 90% average unemployment rate and family average annual income of less than $4,000, affects the three poorest Indian Reservations in the United States."
http://mytwobeadsworth.com/OperationMornStar07.html

"Every day we receive calls concerning the need for help with propane, electricity, water, and telephone bills. Many calls come from elders or single mothers who are trying so hard to make ends meet. Many come from large families whose monthly income is below the poverty line. South Dakota winters are usually cold and long. We have also been receiving calls from North Dakota reservations in recent months.

Federal and tribal heat assistance programs such as LLEAP are limited by their funding. Last year the average one-time assistance to a family, if they could get it, was $200-$300 and for many that would not even fill their propane tanks one time.

Donations for heat are critical; every year there are deaths from freezing to death in the night. This is preventable!"
http://www.pathwaystospirit.org/start.html

"We recently received this letter: "We have been living in our car for the last year and a half. I've tried to find housing but there is none available. We park our car beside my mother-in-law's house. They already have 4 families living there. I have nowhere else to turn. I work 40 hrs. a week. My son can't live with me because I have no home and I really miss him. I would greatly appreciate any help you can give me."
http://www.pathwaystospirit.org/start.html

Yes, Good Luck. We're spoiling them natives, I tell you.

You're more of a jackass than I imagined.
 
apple0154 said:
"Operation Morning Star is a non-profit charitable organization that identifies and focuses on the most important needs of poverty affected Native Americans located on the Cheyenne River, Rosebud, Pine Ridge, and Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Indian Nations.

OMS seeks to address the critical need for housing, food, and non-contaminated water due to historical and current economic conditions that are prevalent on these Indian Reservations located in North and South Dakota.

The 90% average unemployment rate and family average annual income of less than $4,000, affects the three poorest Indian Reservations in the United States."
http://mytwobeadsworth.com/OperationMornStar07.html

"Every day we receive calls concerning the need for help with propane, electricity, water, and telephone bills. Many calls come from elders or single mothers who are trying so hard to make ends meet. Many come from large families whose monthly income is below the poverty line. South Dakota winters are usually cold and long. We have also been receiving calls from North Dakota reservations in recent months.

Federal and tribal heat assistance programs such as LLEAP are limited by their funding. Last year the average one-time assistance to a family, if they could get it, was $200-$300 and for many that would not even fill their propane tanks one time.

Donations for heat are critical; every year there are deaths from freezing to death in the night. This is preventable!"
http://www.pathwaystospirit.org/start.html

"We recently received this letter: "We have been living in our car for the last year and a half. I've tried to find housing but there is none available. We park our car beside my mother-in-law's house. They already have 4 families living there. I have nowhere else to turn. I work 40 hrs. a week. My son can't live with me because I have no home and I really miss him. I would greatly appreciate any help you can give me."
http://www.pathwaystospirit.org/start.html

Yes, Good Luck. We're spoiling them natives, I tell you.

You're more of a jackass than I imagined.
Click to expand...
So, because you can pull some stories off the internet, you know all about it, right?

I am sure there are others out there. But you don't have to tell me, I lived it.

That doesn't say shit about the federal welfare system or why it is broken. All you want to do is throw more money in a broken system and somehow that is going to make things better? Got a hint for you: WE DON'T WANT TO REMAIN DEPENDENT ON YOUR FUCKING HANDOUTS!!!

Is that clear enough for you?

And, since you're in the mood for research, why don't you go find out WHY unemployment is so high on NA reservations. Also investigate why SD reservations are short on potable water. When you come up with those answers, then you can come back and explain why we should trust Obama, or any other federal government personality, when they want to "help" us some more.
 
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