Obama, Public Schools & Teachers Unions

[Taichiliberal]

If this country followed the example of Joe Clark, things would be better regarding education.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

This is a huge area of interest for me. I absolutely despise the teacher's union (NEA) and my state affiliated union (OEA). This is my 22nd year as a teacher and I have never been a member of either one nor do I plan to be. I am a member of Professional Oklahoma Educators. Notice this part of their "About Us" page:

"we do not endorse or make contributions to political candidates"

I believe that there has to be a better way to determine the successfulness of a teacher than looking at test scores alone. Here is a little fact for ya. In Oklahoma our kids have to pass the Algebra EOI test before they can get a high school diploma. Last year 100% of my kids passed it....but I wouldn't want to turn them loose on a real Algebra class because they don't know Algebra. My point is that tests alone are a bogus way of assessing teachers.

Now I'll get to the dirty-ness of politics. The republican-led legislature in Oklahoma has been scaling back funding of the public schools because they want one thing for us: CONSOLIDATION. This year, for instance, they are going to cut schools back to 2006 funding and not call it a cut. Only an idiot couldn't tell that it is a cut but that's what they are going to do. This will force more small schools to have to close thier doors and the republicans will get their consolidation. I know there has to be some control over the administrative costs of small schools...it can get out of hand, but closing them and bussing kids for 1 1/2 to 2 hours isn't the answer.

I'll get off my soap box now but I could go on. I am definitely interested to see what this administration has in store for education.

And the governor just goes along with them?

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Here's an area where I strongly agree with Obama. The first sentence in the article states,

"The Obama administration says it wants to remake public education around the principle that the best teachers should be promoted and rewarded, regardless of seniority."

I hate the teachers union. I understand unions do what is in the best interest of the people in the union. But in the case of the teachers union what is in the best interest of the teachers isn't always/often isn't in the best interest of the kids.

I don't know how Obama accomplishes this without completely pissing out one of his biggest backers but if he really goes through with this then my hat is off to him.


D.C. Schools Chief Targets Tenure

WASHINGTON -- The Obama administration says it wants to remake public education around the principle that the best teachers should be promoted and rewarded, regardless of seniority.

And a brawl over just that idea is now playing out in the shadow of the White House.

The chancellor of Washington's school system, Michelle Rhee, is wrestling with one of the most expensive, worst performing school systems in the country. The dropout rate has hit 40%, and the cost per student is $14,000 a year. Buildings are crumbling and thousands of parents have abandoned the system, which serves about 45,000 students.

Ms. Rhee is trying to reduce what she believes to be a bloated school management and wrest more control over the district's affairs from the powerful local teachers' union. She has replaced principals, laid off teachers and closed underperforming schools.

She has also challenged what she feels is one of the biggest impediments to improvement: tenure, or strong job protections for teachers. The idea is to promise teachers much richer salaries, as well as performance bonuses, if they give up tenure. Good performers would be rewarded, poor performers gotten rid of.

In September, the 39-year-old Ms. Rhee, citing a looming budget gap, laid off nearly 400 school employees, including 266 teachers. The dismissals came weeks after Ms. Rhee finished hiring 934 new teachers over the summer. Ms. Rhee said she was initiating the layoffs based on "quality, not by seniority."

The Washington Teachers' Union filed a grievance and a lawsuit against the district over the layoffs, calling them "a blatant violation" of the union contract and a pretext for dismissing veterans without proper cause, which the district denies.

The feud has turned into a grudge match between Ms. Rhee and Randi Weingarten, head of the 1.4 million-member American Federation of Teachers, which has intervened directly in the local contract dispute. Ms. Rhee "has so poisoned the environment that I am not sure that we can ever get back to a good situation here," said Ms. Weingarten.

Ms. Rhee said the union fears the district's layoffs based on job performance will set a precedent for changes nationally. "If you ask any urban school superintendent, they would wish they could to exactly the same thing," she said.

The fight has become an issue for the Obama administration, which is preparing to award more than $4 billion in grants to states that are realigning their schools to reward teachers and principals for improved student performance. Education Secretary Arne Duncan has extolled other school districts, such as in New Haven, Conn., that have brokered deals recently with their unions, but he hasn't waded into the D.C. fight.

Still, Mr. Duncan said he wants to see the D.C. spat end soon. "We generally don't weigh in on local labor disputes, but this has gone on too long and they need to bring it to closure," he said in an interview. "There are a lot of good ideas on the table and this agreement could be a national model," he said.

Ms. Rhee told a group of corporate chief executives at a Wall Street Journal gathering in Washington this week that it made no sense for a struggling district to ignore teacher quality when initiating layoffs, an issue she called "one of the age-old sacred cows of unionism."

Under her plan, proposed in the summer of 2008 during negotiations over a new teacher contract, the district proposed significantly increasing teacher salaries and offering performance-based bonuses in return for teachers giving up some job security. She said the new pay scale would enable the highest-performing first-year teachers to make up to $78,000 a year, up from $45,000. Veterans could have earned as much as $131,000, roughly double what they had been paid. Those who wanted to keep their contractual job protections could opt out of the bonus plan.

"The union roundly rejected it -- went ballistic," she said, adding that the national teachers' unions viewed it as an assault on tenure.

Ms. Weingarten said the negotiations were close to completion, but the layoffs in September scuttled that effort.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125860189986054965.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories

I think unions should allow pay cuts/increases based on performance. The "equal pay for all" is just a leftover from unions socialist roots that's no longer really applicable in the modern world, where socialism is intellectually devoid. I'm OK with them fighting for higher pay, but it should scale to performance as well.

 

[Onceler]

oh...so you're just trolling...i admire your honesty

and the rest....well.....you know, as well as i, it is just trolling.....i never said that, nor implied that.....

Of course you do. It's a quality you lack.

Why can't you just come clean on your blind adoration of Bush? Every other thread, one of your 1st comments will be something along the lines of "Bush gets credit for this, you know!", or "Bush thought of this first!" Whatever recovery we're having, you're always quick to say it's due only to Bush's efforts, and that anything Obama does has hurt.

You love the guy. It's mind-boggling, but you do....

 

[leaningright]

And the governor just goes along with them?

He blocks them when he can but most of the time on issues such as this he doesn't have the ability to stop them. I really think that he is for consolidation as well but cannot come right out and say it because of his base. He has been somewhat wishy-washy on the issue. Time will tell.

 

[Cypress]

Hey cawacko, this doesn't seem very conservative.

Education is primarily a state and local issue, especially when it comes to wages and salaries.

 

[Chapdog]

I think teachers are underpaid in most states personally. I don't know why anyone would want that career. Whats the avg hourly rate for a teacher? You would be surprise at how much bullshit they have to do all the time after the kids go home, before school starts, and sometimes on weekends. Sure they get lots of days off but they only make like 40k.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

I think teachers are underpaid in most states personally. I don't know why anyone would want that career. Whats the avg hourly rate for a teacher? You would be surprise at how much bullshit they have to do all the time after the kids go home, before school starts, and sometimes on weekends. Sure they get lots of days off but they only make like 40k.

Lots of people work their ass off all year for 40k.

They knew this going in.

Stop bitching.

Those who can't do, teach.

 

[leaningright]

Lots of people work their [butt] off all year for 40k.

Lots of people who decided not to further their education beyond high school. Not many professional people do.

They knew this going in.

Yep. I knew it. Those pesky teachers who knew what I was going to do made sure I knew it.

Stop [griping].

no

Those who can't do, teach.

Of course as a a teacher I hate this statement....and I heard it only when I entered education classes...in 1984. When I was growing up I was taught to have respect for my teachers. As a teacher I have the respect of my kids even when they may not have it when they first come to my class. I teach knowing there are lots of things I could do besides...Topper & I discussed this somewhat the other day.

All that said, I am for more accountability but not accountabiliity solely based on test scores. I am for making it easier to get rid of dead-beat teachers even though they might have tenure. I am for a lot of changes in education....none that have to do with receiving higher pay. Like I said, I knew what I would make going in.

 

[Lowaicue]

Lots of people who decided not to further their education beyond high school. Not many professional people do.



Yep. I knew it. Those pesky teachers who knew what I was going to do made sure I knew it.



no



Of course as a a teacher I hate this statement....and I heard it only when I entered education classes...in 1984. When I was growing up I was taught to have respect for my teachers. As a teacher I have the respect of my kids even when they may not have it when they first come to my class. I teach knowing there are lots of things I could do besides...Topper & I discussed this somewhat the other day.

All that said, I am for more accountability but not accountabiliity solely based on test scores. I am for making it easier to get rid of dead-beat teachers even though they might have tenure. I am for a lot of changes in education....none that have to do with receiving higher pay. Like I said, I knew what I would make going in.

I think that on another thread you mentioned, in passing, that you were a fundementalist christian. Are you REALLY permitted to teach future generations in America?
I would consider you quite as dangerous as a paedophile, frankly.

 

[Thorn]

I think that on another thread you mentioned, in passing, that you were a fundementalist christian. Are you REALLY permitted to teach future generations in America?
I would consider you quite as dangerous as a paedophile, frankly.

Low, as far as I'm concerned you just insulted one of the finest people on the board. Leaning makes no apologies for his faith, neither does he impose his beliefs on anyone else. I've never known him to say anything to anyone that wasn't entirely respectful, without his compromising his own positions. We may not see things always in the same way, but I'd be proud to call him a friend if I knew him personally.

I don't understand where some of your vitriol comes from, I really don't.

 

[Damocles]

I think that on another thread you mentioned, in passing, that you were a fundementalist christian. Are you REALLY permitted to teach future generations in America?
I would consider you quite as dangerous as a paedophile, frankly.

Well, Low, it appears you've outdone yourself. You've just diminished yourself to almost everybody on this board. leaningright, is definitely one of the most considerate people on this board who has never pushed his faith, although he is unapologetic about his beliefs.

 

[Lowaicue]

Well, Low, it appears you've outdone yourself. You've just diminished yourself to almost everybody on this board. leaningright, is definitely one of the most considerate people on this board who has never pushed his faith, although he is unapologetic about his beliefs.

I'm sorry but to allow fundementalists of any religion access to the people who, we hope, will be tomorrows leaders is dangerous. For goodness sake look at your own nation. A staggering 45% of Americans believe the world was created less than 10,000 years ago!!!!! 45%!!!
I stand by what I said. I am sure that Leaning Right is a nice person as I am sure that Osama bin Laden is considered nice to his own people. They are both dangerous and both are threats, in different ways I grant you, to the future well being of humanity.
If Leaning Right wishes to comment I will treat him with a certain respect and not insult him as a person. But his beliefs are and always will be objectionable and unacceptable.

 

[Cypress]

I'm sorry but to allow fundementalists of any religion access to the people who, we hope, will be tomorrows leaders is dangerous. For goodness sake look at your own nation. A staggering 45% of Americans believe the world was created less than 10,000 years ago!!!!! 45%!!!
I stand by what I said. I am sure that Leaning Right is a nice person as I am sure that Osama bin Laden is considered nice to his own people. They are both dangerous and both are threats, in different ways I grant you, to the future well being of humanity.
If Leaning Right wishes to comment I will treat him with a certain respect and not insult him as a person. But his beliefs are and always will be objectionable and unacceptable.

That’s fine, but you equated LR with a pedophile, and that was below the belt. I don’t take a back seat to anyone with respect to fundamentalist Christianity being, in large measure, a scourge to human enlightenment. But, as far as I know, LR doesn’t teach creation science to students and I doubt he indoctrinates them in any sort of way with fundamentalist Christianity. In fact, if I’m not mistaken, LR has made it a point to call out the bigotry and racism of the fundamentalist Christian Taliban. There might be some Christian teachers who promote medieval views and ignorance in the class, but I doubt LR is one of them. And do you know why 45% of flat earth Americans believe in creationism? It ain’t the fault of teachers or public schools. If fault is going to be assigned, it’s the fault of churches, politicians, and parents.

 

[Onceler]

I'm sorry but to allow fundementalists of any religion access to the people who, we hope, will be tomorrows leaders is dangerous. For goodness sake look at your own nation. A staggering 45% of Americans believe the world was created less than 10,000 years ago!!!!! 45%!!!
I stand by what I said. I am sure that Leaning Right is a nice person as I am sure that Osama bin Laden is considered nice to his own people. They are both dangerous and both are threats, in different ways I grant you, to the future well being of humanity.
If Leaning Right wishes to comment I will treat him with a certain respect and not insult him as a person. But his beliefs are and always will be objectionable and unacceptable.

You're comparing leaningright to OBL? That is utterly ridiculous.

Based on what I have seen on this board, leaningright is probably a better teacher than 90% or so of the ones I had. Someone's personal beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with the job they do as a professional, and your assertion is wrongheaded & the height of paranoia. It's embarassing.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I think teachers are underpaid in most states personally. I don't know why anyone would want that career. Whats the avg hourly rate for a teacher? You would be surprise at how much bullshit they have to do all the time after the kids go home, before school starts, and sometimes on weekends. Sure they get lots of days off but they only make like 40k.

Yeah that's one of the strongest arguments I hear against these policies. Get rid of bad teachers? Who the hell are we going to replace them with?

And you've gotta be paying them something before you can scale it to performance.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Of course as a a teacher I hate this statement....and I heard it only when I entered education classes...in 1984. When I was growing up I was taught to have respect for my teachers. As a teacher I have the respect of my kids even when they may not have it when they first come to my class. I teach knowing there are lots of things I could do besides...Topper & I discussed this somewhat the other day.

All that said, I am for more accountability but not accountabiliity solely based on test scores. I am for making it easier to get rid of dead-beat teachers even though they might have tenure. I am for a lot of changes in education....none that have to do with receiving higher pay. Like I said, I knew what I would make going in.

I understand the point of tenure for professors is to encourage academic independence.

But what's the point of tenure for high school teachers? Is it just a benefit? IMHO, we should just pay them more instead of giving them a job benefit that could potentially detriment our students.

I had a teacher in high school who was senile and knew nothing about history, but she had taught for a long time and so they let her keep going on. I can't tell you how many times she told me things that were directly contradicted in the book we were reading (and the book wasn't always entirely accurate either).

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

*garbage*

Low, just delete this. You're going to regret saying something so ridiculous.

 

[Lowaicue]

That’s fine, but you equated LR with a pedophile, and that was below the belt. I don’t take a back seat to anyone with respect to fundamentalist Christianity being, in large measure, a scourge to human enlightenment. But, as far as I know, LR doesn’t teach creation science to students and I doubt he indoctrinates them in any sort of way with fundamentalist Christianity. In fact, if I’m not mistaken, LR has made it a point to call out the bigotry and racism of the fundamentalist Christian Taliban. There might be some Christian teachers who promote medieval views and ignorance in the class, but I doubt LR is one of them. And do you know why 45% of flat earth Americans believe in creationism? It ain’t the fault of teachers or public schools. If fault is going to be assigned, it’s the fault of churches, politicians, and parents.

Is it below the belt? How many lives will a paedophile ruin? And there are laws against paedophilia.
A teacher is in close contact with thousands of impressionable children in the course of his career and there is no law that says he cannot abuse his priviledge by destroying their ability to think. There is absolutely nothing that a parent can legally do to ensure that his child receives an unbiased and non faith-based education. A fundementalist teacher, of any faith, cannot be prevented from applying for a teaching post and cannot be refused based on his religious beliefs.
I used the comparison in the full knowledge that even the most conservative (small 'c') posters would find it offensive. Without that I doubt that anyone would have given it a second thought. It is important that we DO give this, not only a second thought, but a third, fourth and fifth thought.
The reason that 45% of Americans believe the world is less than 10,000 years old is not as you say. Otherwise a similar percentage of British, French, German, Swedish etc etc people would have the same belief.
It is an American phenomenon for which there are several explanations.
I am sure that Leaning Right is a nice person. I am sure he wouldn't hurt a fly and I am also sure that he totally believes that his unswerving devotion to a man made fairy story that allows no dissent, is harmless.

 

[Annie]

I think that on another thread you mentioned, in passing, that you were a fundementalist christian. Are you REALLY permitted to teach future generations in America?
I would consider you quite as dangerous as a paedophile, frankly.

By that logic you've undermined the idea that homosexuals who've ever admitted same, ANYWHERE, should be barred from teaching future generations. Great going.