Fear of Atheism

[Stelakh]

Atheists are repulsive. In the same way Jehovah's witnesses are - and for the exact same reason. Zealots who aggressively proselytize their faith. Fanatics who are shrill and demanding. Who wants to deal with that shit? Rude and obnoxious.

You know, this is interesting.

I lived in the DC area for quite some time, and the first time my nephew came to visit, I took him to see all the monuments, museums, for a Capitol tour led by my Congressman, etc. The whole touristy deal. There was an event going on at the Reflecting Pool, and of course, because there was an event there were tons of protestors.

I remember passing a young woman in a Hijab, who was being harassed by a group of people. Christians with a little pop-up truck stand, with posters and stickers all over it, each proclaiming love for Jesus, and faith, crosses and cartoon images of the bible everywhere.

They were screaming so much that their faces were red, and they were literally shooting bits of spittle in actual rage, telling this young woman she was going to burn in Hell, and how she needed to get out of the US.

She handled it in the funniest way possible by turning her back to them and taking selfies with her phone, giving it the thumbs up and clearly enjoying their hate-filled screeds. But that wasn't really what I thought about the most.

It made me think about my own experiences. I'm traditionally, though not religiously, Jewish. My grandparents were Orthodox Jews, my father was a religious Jew. I'm an atheist, but follow certain traditions out of respect for my family and let's face it, tradition. Tradition is tradition. A billion dead people can't be wrong, right?

So there ARE times that I wear a yarmulke, or go to Temple. And there are times when I've been identifiably Jewish (because of the kippa) that I've been told that I'm wrong, that I'm going to Hell, that I've been screamed at, and that I've been told I'm - to put it mildly - a bad person.

And EVERY single time that's happened, it's been Christians that have done it. From some Christian person standing on a box on a corner, raising a bible high into the air and using it to spread hatred toward non-Christians to simply going home after an event like a Bar Mitzvah or from Temple, it's ALWAYS Christians who have, yes, aggressively proselytized their faith.

So fanatics who are shrill and demanding? Rude and obnoxious? That's your lot.

 

[Stelakh]

I'm not here to "win" an argument I'm merely pointing out that there is nothing in the atheistic world view that says slavery is wrong.

Aside from the Atheists themselves, you mean?

 

[Yakuda]

Aside from the Atheists themselves, you mean?

That doesn't tell us anything. The whims humans is not a very reliable moral code.

 

[Stelakh]

This is a topic an atheist moral relativist like you can really sink your teeth into:

Can Evolution Account for Morality?​

Evolution fundamentally is about survival of the fittest​

Chemistry, molecules, and molecular biology are not moral agents.

Evolution is descriptive not prescriptive, and describes what does survive, not what ought to survive. Why should humans survive?

Should we murder the weak to help others survive?

Should we cull the gene pool by eliminating the disabled and help the fit survive?

Why "cooperate" when not cooperating often helps you to survive?

Should we rape to survive and propagate our genes?

Since evolution is a process of change, then morals must change. Will rape one day be "good"?

This is, putting it as respectfully as I can, one of the most asinine things I've read in some time.

Atheists don't need a book that codifies what's morally, ethically, right and wrong. There is an objective core to humanity which (much as I'm loath to defend humans as a species) in itself has an objective morality that says, "no, if I do this, someone else will do THAT".

There is no such thing as altruism. There is NOTHING that motivates a human to help others that isn't, at some level, self-serving.

Even those who do good and decent works like feeding and clothing the homeless, helping small children, fostering small animals, ANY truly and morally decent work, will at the very least say, if you ask them why they do it, "It feels good to help others", and there's the end to altruism. The endorphins they get from helping others makes them feel good.

It all really does boil down to the "Golden Rule": "I would very much like to not be murdered, so I won't murder". That doesn't take some kind of deity to figure out. It's simply instinctual.

So no, something like rape will never be "good". And as an atheist, I don't need a list of rules to tell me that.

 

[gmark77]

I'm not here to "win" an argument I'm merely pointing out that there is nothing in the atheistic world view that says slavery is wrong.

So why do YOU think slavery is bad? God seems to be OK with it. Who are you to disagree with God????

Exodus 21 2-11
“When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave declares, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person,’ 6 then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him for life.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt unfairly with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out without debt, without payment of money.

Ephesians 6:5-9
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ, 6 not with a slavery performed merely for looks, to please people, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the soul.

1 Timothy 6:1-2
Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed.

Titus 2:9
Urge slaves to be submissive to their masters in everything, to be pleasing, not talking back, 10 not stealing, but showing complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the teaching of God our Savior.

 

[Yakuda]

So why do YOU think slavery is bad? God seems to be OK with it. Who are you to disagree with God????

Exodus 21 2-11
“When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave declares, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person,’ 6 then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him for life.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt unfairly with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out without debt, without payment of money.

Ephesians 6:5-9
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ, 6 not with a slavery performed merely for looks, to please people, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the soul.

1 Timothy 6:1-2
Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed.

Titus 2:9
Urge slaves to be submissive to their masters in everything, to be pleasing, not talking back, 10 not stealing, but showing complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the teaching of God our Savior.

He shall serve 6 year and freed in the 7th. What some might call a sabbatical. Oops. Thats indentured servitude not slavery. The Jews in Egypt weren't indentured servants they were slaves.

 

[ZenMode]

Not according to an atheist like you. You asserted there is no objective truth about morality, that there is no absolute right and wrong.

Only atheists, secular materialists, and existentialists tend to believe that.

Science/scientists tend to avoid making moral judgements at nearly any cost. They want to explain why things are how they are, but won't tell you how things should be.

That doesn't mean that science CAN'T answer questions about human values and morality, it just means that scientists don't WANT to address the topic.

 

[gmark77]

He shall serve 6 year and freed in the 7th. What some might call a sabbatical. Oops. Thats indentured servitude not slavery. The Jews in Egypt weren't indentured servants they were slaves.

Queue the post hoc justifications.

Slaves weren't slaves when the Bible says "slaves".

Words don't mean anything. You are free to believe whatever you want for whatever reason you like.

See? You have a lower standard for morality than an atheist does. At least for atheists the WORDS still mean something.

 

[ZenMode]

I'm not here to "win" an argument I'm merely pointing out that there is nothing in the atheistic world view that says slavery is wrong.

How about the experience of those enslaved?

 

[Yakuda]

Where does this happen?


Queue the post hoc justifications.

Slaves weren't slaves when the Bible says "slaves".

Words don't mean anything. You are free to believe whatever you want for whatever reason you like.

See? You have a lower standard for morality than an atheist does. At least for atheists the WORDS still mean something.

You did read serves 6 years didn't you? You understand the difference between indentured servitude and slavery correct?

Atheists have no moral standard.

 

[gmark77]

He shall serve 6 year and freed in the 7th. What some might call a sabbatical. Oops. Thats indentured servitude not slavery. The Jews in Egypt weren't indentured servants they were slaves.

Since you are clearly and expert on exegesis, can you explain how 1 Sam 15:3 is NOT an exhortation to murder?

When one kills even non-combatant women and children I'm struggling to see how that isn't murder.

 

[Yakuda]

How about the experience of those enslaved?

What about it?!

 

[gmark77]

You did read serves 6 years didn't you? You understand the difference between indentured servitude and slavery correct?

Atheists have no moral standard.

We know that words only mean what YOU want them to mean and God has gifted you with the power to gut any meaningful moral statement as necessary.

Ergo: Bible-based morality is wholly subjective and up to the whims of the individual believer.

 

[ZenMode]

Atheists are repulsive. In the same way Jehovah's witnesses are - and for the exact same reason. Zealots who aggressively proselytize their faith. Fanatics who are shrill and demanding. Who wants to deal with that shit? Rude and obnoxious.

Doesn't the Bible tell Christians to proselytize their faith, or is your issue the degree to which they are proselytizing.

 

[gmark77]

How about the experience of those enslaved?

Does that really matter to God? As long as the slaves are obedient it's all good.

 

[Yakuda]

Since you are clearly and expert on exegesis, can you explain how 1 Sam 15:3 is NOT an exhortation to murder?

When one kills even non-combatant women and children I'm struggling to see how that isn't murder.

Where did I claim to be an expert? An eye for eye. The Israelites were waylaid by the amalekites. The point being decisions have consequences regardless of what you have been told.

 

[Yakuda]

We know that words only mean what YOU want them to mean and God has gifted you with the power to gut any meaningful moral statement as necessary.

Ergo: Bible-based morality is wholly subjective and up to the whims of the individual believer.

No you can look up indentured servitude if you like. Indi t decide the meaning of words.

 

[ZenMode]

What about it?!

Do you agree that there exists a general difference between a "good" life and a "bad" life?

If you're a woman in a fundamentalist Muslim country, who has had your clitoris cut out, is viewed as, at best, a second class citizen in your own society, is forced to live in a burlap sack, is disallowed from getting an education, has had has acid thrown on your face for trying to learn to read and are regularly beaten by your husband, would you say that is a worse life than (without going into comparable detail), being the wife of Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates?

 

[gmark77]

No you can look up indentured servitude if you like. Indi t decide the meaning of words.

You parse as well as a pharisee. You should be proud, you have a long-standing tradition.

So in your world "indentured servitude" is OK but "slavery" is Bad, right?

How do you tell the difference? Is it just the "term" like 7 years? So 7 years of slavery ahem, I mean "indentured servitude" is not bad?

 

[gmark77]

Where did I claim to be an expert? An eye for eye. The Israelites were waylaid by the amalekites. The point being decisions have consequences regardless of what you have been told.

So "murder" is OK if God commands it via his prophet?

Why didn't God clarify this earlier when he gave the 10 Commandments and he CLEARLY stated murder as wrong. Full stop.