the ATF has some 'splaining' to do

Yurt said:
the second, i have no opinion, i haven't seen the facts.
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Let me know if you need a bigger version.

atf-shoestring
 
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No said:
Let me know if you need a bigger version.

ATF-shoestring-machine-gun-2007.jpg
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billy, i am not familiar with guns, what is this supposed to evince? your earlier statement:

there is also the little matter of them knowing that their class 3 database is all jacked up, but they'll lie on the stand and say that it's perfectly up to date. then labeling a chain, shoestring, and an AR 15 constitutes a machine gun.
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the code cited in your link:

(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
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i'm sure i'm missing something, can you fill me in....
 
and another odd twist to this.

http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/topic/153-phoenix-division/

This really sickens me to see Gillett getting rewarded for a history of misconduct and incompetence. It also appears he has not taken any heat on approving the Tucson version of phoenix's "Gun Walker" in Tucson called linebacker or wide receiver (something like that)where he and Newell approved "walking" several hundred assault rifles to Mexico. Also, get this ......he approved the signing (and paying) of the FFL dealer as a CI, paid him as a CI and allowed him to profit from the illegal straw purchases ATF directed him to do.....what a deal! What do you think would be happening right now if one of those guns were linked to the Tucson shooting of Rep Gifford? How about it Senator Grassley.....are these ATF supervisors really the "untouchables"? Retaliation by ATF management is a way of life in ATF. Why......because all know management is corrupt and will pull out all stops to protect one another and NOTHING ever happens!
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Agents were ORDERED to let guns cross in to mexico by ATF directors

Federal agent John Dodson says what he was asked to do was beyond belief.

He was intentionally letting guns go to Mexico?

"Yes ma'am," Dodson told CBS News. "The agency was."

An Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms senior agent assigned to the Phoenix office in 2010, Dodson's job is to stop gun trafficking across the border. Instead, he says he was ordered to sit by and watch it happen.

Investigators call the tactic letting guns "walk." In this case, walking into the hands of criminals who would use them in Mexico and the United States.

Dodson's bosses say that never happened. Now, he's risking his job to go public.

"I'm boots on the ground in Phoenix, telling you we've been doing it every day since I've been here," he said. "Here I am. Tell me I didn't do the things that I did. Tell me you didn't order me to do the things I did. Tell me it didn't happen. Now you have a name on it. You have a face to put with it. Here I am. Someone now, tell me it didn't happen."

Agent Dodson and other sources say the gun walking strategy was approved all the way up to the Justice Department. The idea was to see where the guns ended up, build a big case and take down a cartel. And it was all kept secret from Mexico.
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two reasons for this kind of action by the ATF uppers, and that's to scare the public in to allowing more right infringing policies like multiple sales reporting of longarms, and/or to avoid any budget cuts in the next budget claiming that they need more to be able to stop the flow of guns in to mexico.

will americans be stupid and believe the ATF/DOJ upper level people or the agents on the ground being told what to do?
 
Mexico requests detailed info on 'fast and furious'. The Project Gunrunner scandal goes international

Mexico's Ministry of Foreign Affairs is asking the U.S. government for details about ATF's "Fast and Furious" operations.

As our CBS News Investigation has revealed, "Fast and Furious" was a secret program under which, sources say, ATF purposely allowed thousands of assault rifles and other weapons from the U.S. into the hands of drug cartels in Mexico. Insiders call it letting the guns "walk."

The idea was to supposedly see where the guns ended up and use the information to take down a major cartel.

ATF sources tell CBS News that Mexican officials were intentionally kept in the dark for fear that they would jeopardize the controversial program. The strategy drew fierce criticism from federal agents ordered to employ it, including John Dodson. Dodson told CBS News that that letting guns "walk" endangered too many lives.

Now, according to the statement, posted online by Mexico's Ministry of Foreign Affairs (in Spanish), the Mexican government has requested detailed information about the "Fast and Furious" operation being conducted by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), and the U.S. Department of Justice.

The statement also reinforced the bilateral efforts of the United States and Mexico to stop arms smuggling, as endorsed by President Felipe Calderon and President Barack Obama on Thursday during Calderon's visit to Washington, D.C.

Documents show that ATF-walked guns began turning up at many violent crime scenes in Mexico from the start. Two of them - AK-47 variant semi-automatic assault rifles - were found at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry on December 14, 2010.

After CBS News reported on the alleged gun walking, ATF announced it will review its anti-trafficking strategies. The Department of Justice has asked its Inspector General to look into the matter.
 
And the first denial is recorded.

Janet Napolitano denies any knowledge of 'fast and furious'

Today, Senator Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) asked Napolitano about that at a hearing before the Judiciary Committee.

"I'm not aware of that particular agent," answered Napolitano. She also said that she's become aware of ATF's Fast and Furious operation "in the wake of the murders of Terry and Zapato."

"Did you sign off on this operation, and if so, when?" Grassley asked.

"No," said Napolitano, "this is within the Justice Department."
 
Interesting...I await the developments as to whether the Justice Dept., the Secretary of State and the Attorney General are going to push for a LOT of heads to roll at the ATF.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Interesting...I await the developments as to whether the Justice Dept., the Secretary of State and the Attorney General are going to push for a LOT of heads to roll at the ATF.
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rumor has it that George Gillette, the head guy in charge of the ATF phoenix region is doing no interviews and has already hired an attorney. Either he headed this illegal and murderous operation or he's going to be made the scapegoat for it.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Interesting...I await the developments as to whether the Justice Dept., the Secretary of State and the Attorney General are going to push for a LOT of heads to roll at the ATF.
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rumor has it that George Gillette, the head guy in charge of the ATF phoenix region is doing no interviews and has already hired an attorney. Either he headed this illegal and murderous operation or he's going to be made the scapegoat for it.
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Whatever the hell they were thinking, this could snowball into a restructuring instead of just Deep Six'ing a few people. Time will tell.
 
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