A Study Suggests... Evidence of Dyson Spheres—and Alien Civilizations

[Commander Dutch]

I'd read a few decades ago that Dyson Spheres would be signs of advance alien civilizations. That we should look for stars winking out.

Obviously such a civilization would be several hundred years more advanced than ours.

A Study Suggests We Found Potential Evidence of Dyson Spheres—and Alien Civilizations

Could unusual starlight patterns be the key to uncovering these mythical megastructures?

www.popularmechanics.com

A Study Suggests We Found Potential Evidence of Dyson Spheres—and Alien Civilizations​

• For more than half a century, scientists have wondered if searching for technosignatures like Dyson Spheres from super-advanced civilizations could help us discover intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.
• Two new studies analyze data from star-gazing satellites to develop a framework for eliminating false positives or potential natural explanations in that search.
• Each study found evidence that a handful of stars among the millions observed contain excess radiation that’s consistent with potential Dyson spheres and can’t be immediately explained away as a natural phenomenon.

The Kardashev scale: Classifying alien civilizations

The Kardashev scale is based on how much energy a civilization uses.

www.space.com

The Kardashev scale: Classifying alien civilizations​

The Kardashev scale is based on how much energy a civilization uses.​

The Kardashev scale is a classification system for hypothetical extraterrestrial civilizations. The scale includes three categories based on how much energy a civilization is using. Kardashev describes type I as a "technological level close to the level presently attained on the Earth," type II as "a civilization capable of harnessing the energy radiated by its own star" and type III as "a civilization in possession of energy on the scale of its own galaxy." Each type also includes a numerical cut-off for the energy involved, but those weren't arbitrary cut-offs. "He used things that are easy to visualize," Valentin Ivanov, an astronomer at the European Southern Observatory who has built on Kardashev's work, told Space.com. "I'm almost tempted to say it's a publicity stunt, these comparisons that he uses to make it easier for people to understand." Kardashev's scale is included in a five-page paper published in 1964 and called "Transmission of information by extraterrestrial civilizations." (The paper was originally published in Russian, but an English translation was published the same year.) Although the scale is what caught people's imaginations, "Transmission of information by extraterrestrial civilizations" focuses on calculating how powerful a light signal from any point of the universe would need to be for radio scientists at the time to detect it. This value is also the numerical cut-off for the energy use of a type II civilization.​

 

[Cypress]

I'd read a few decades ago that Dyson Spheres would be signs of advance alien civilizations. That we should look for stars winking out.

Obviously such a civilization would be several hundred years more advanced than ours.

A Study Suggests We Found Potential Evidence of Dyson Spheres—and Alien Civilizations

Could unusual starlight patterns be the key to uncovering these mythical megastructures?

www.popularmechanics.com

A Study Suggests We Found Potential Evidence of Dyson Spheres—and Alien Civilizations​

• For more than half a century, scientists have wondered if searching for technosignatures like Dyson Spheres from super-advanced civilizations could help us discover intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.
• Two new studies analyze data from star-gazing satellites to develop a framework for eliminating false positives or potential natural explanations in that search.
• Each study found evidence that a handful of stars among the millions observed contain excess radiation that’s consistent with potential Dyson spheres and can’t be immediately explained away as a natural phenomenon.

The Kardashev scale: Classifying alien civilizations

The Kardashev scale is based on how much energy a civilization uses.

www.space.com

The Kardashev scale: Classifying alien civilizations​

The Kardashev scale is based on how much energy a civilization uses.​

The Kardashev scale is a classification system for hypothetical extraterrestrial civilizations. The scale includes three categories based on how much energy a civilization is using. Kardashev describes type I as a "technological level close to the level presently attained on the Earth," type II as "a civilization capable of harnessing the energy radiated by its own star" and type III as "a civilization in possession of energy on the scale of its own galaxy." Each type also includes a numerical cut-off for the energy involved, but those weren't arbitrary cut-offs. "He used things that are easy to visualize," Valentin Ivanov, an astronomer at the European Southern Observatory who has built on Kardashev's work, told Space.com. "I'm almost tempted to say it's a publicity stunt, these comparisons that he uses to make it easier for people to understand." Kardashev's scale is included in a five-page paper published in 1964 and called "Transmission of information by extraterrestrial civilizations." (The paper was originally published in Russian, but an English translation was published the same year.) Although the scale is what caught people's imaginations, "Transmission of information by extraterrestrial civilizations" focuses on calculating how powerful a light signal from any point of the universe would need to be for radio scientists at the time to detect it. This value is also the numerical cut-off for the energy use of a type II civilization.​

I thought their alternative hypothesis of warm debris disks around a star because of a planetary collision sounds more plausible.

I always wondered if any single planet or even solar system would have enough raw material to build something on the scale of a Dyson's sphere. Surely it would require advanced metallurgy or composite alloys.

 

[Commander Dutch]

I thought their alternative hypothesis of warm debris disks around a star because of a planetary collision sounds more plausible.

I always wondered if any single planet or even solar system would have enough raw material to build something on the scale of a Dyson's sphere. Surely it would require advanced metallurgy or composite alloys.

It wouldn't account for dimming of mature stars since, like our asteroid belt, any orbital anomalies would have resolved themselves over the eons.
Why do you believe advanced civilizations don't exist and that a sign of their existence would be Dyson rings or spheres?

Agreed. They'd probably have to mine it from their equivalent of Oort clouds and nearby stars. That'd require a lot of advanced tech. Consider us mining the triple star system of Alpha Centauri, about 5 LY away. Due to the restriction of physics, it'd require a minimum 10 year-round trip along with the time to mine material, say another year or three. We're in the backwater of the Galaxy, so stars closer to the core are closer together making such trips shorter and with more options.

 

[Cypress]

It wouldn't account for dimming of mature stars since, like our asteroid belt, any orbital anomalies would have resolved themselves over the eons.
Why do you believe advanced civilizations don't exist and that a sign of their existence would be Dyson rings or spheres?

Agreed. They'd probably have to mine it from their equivalent of Oort clouds and nearby stars. That'd require a lot of advanced tech. Consider us mining the triple star system of Alpha Centauri, about 5 LY away. Due to the restriction of physics, it'd require a minimum 10 year-round trip along with the time to mine material, say another year or three. We're in the backwater of the Galaxy, so stars closer to the core are closer together making such trips shorter and with more options.

Thanks for the clarification.

Good points.

I don't believe one way or the other whether advanced civilizations in our galaxy exist. I hold to the maxim that extraordinary scientific claims require extraordinary evidence. It seemed like the article pointed to possible natural causes as an alternative hypothesis. I'd like to see artificial non-natural signals in the electromagnetic spectrum, or other tangible evidence.

I wonder if anyone has done any back of the envelope calculations of the amount of energy required to strip an entire solar system of available silicon, metals, metalloids versus the benefit of constructing a planetary-scale Dyson's sphere.

 

[Commander Dutch]

Thanks for the clarification.

Good points.

I don't believe one way or the other whether advanced civilizations in our galaxy exist. I hold to the maxim that extraordinary scientific claims require extraordinary evidence. It seemed like the article pointed to possible natural causes as an alternative hypothesis. I'd like to see artificial non-natural signals in the electromagnetic spectrum, or other tangible evidence.

I wonder if anyone has done any back of the envelope calculations of the amount of energy required to strip an entire solar system of available silicon, metals, metalloids versus the benefit of constructing a planetary-scale Dyson's sphere.

Thanks.

Not an expert, but the article did say "The search for alien life comes in many flavors, from hunting for Earth-like planets, to looking for stars with Sun-like characteristics, to tuning into some kind of alien transmission." The James Webb telescope is using spectrum analysis to look for oxygen, but that only indicates life, not intelligent life.

In Marine terms, I'm guessing the answer is "A shitload". A friend in high school, one of the first to own a TI calculator, once calculated how many cigarrette butts it'd take to fill up the Sun. I'm guessing that number is large enough to come close to that of building a Dyson sphere.

Did you ever read Niven's "Ringworld"? A ring would be the first step. After that it would be a second ring and subsequent rings until it could be filled.

Ringworld - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org