An Evolution Primer for Creationists

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http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4010#

An Evolution Primer for Creationists

Skeptoid #10


Some creationists may be concerned that some of their standard arguments against evolution sound dismissive or patronizing. This is probably true: in any debate, it's common to frame your opponent's arguments in a weak light. Sometimes this is done deliberately to make evolution sound ridiculous, and sometimes it's done accidentally through ignorance of what evolution is and how it works. Since misinformation and ignorance are poor platforms on which to build any conversation, I present the following Evolution 101 Primer for the benefit of creationists who want a correct basic understanding of their foe. I think the best way to do this is to dispel the three most common evolution myths.

Myth #1: Men evolved from modern apes.

This is the oldest and wrongest misconception about evolution. Nobody has ever suggested that one living species changes into a different living species. Some criticisms of evolution show illustrations that fraudulently purport to show what evolutionists claim: that a salmon changed into a turtle, which changed into an alligator, which changed into a hippo, which changed into a lion, and then into a monkey, and then into a human being. Of course such a theory would seem ludicrous. But it's pure fantasy and has nothing in common with real evolution.

The diversification of species is like a forest of trees, sprouting from the proverbial primordial soup. Many trees die out. Some don't grow very tall. Some have grown a lot over the eons and are still growing today. Trees branch out, and branches branch out themselves, but branches never come back together or combine from two different trees. The path of a species' evolution is shaped like the branch of a tree, not a donut, not a figure 8, not a ladder. To embrace evolution, you need not — must not — think that a salmon turns into a zebra, or that an ape turns into a man. It's simply not genetically possible.

We've all seen the other famous illustration, where a monkey morphs into an ape, that morphs into a caveman, that morphs into homo sapiens. If you climb back down the tree branch, you will indeed find earlier versions of man where he was smaller, hairier, and dumber, but it won't be a modern ape. To find a modern ape, you'd need to go even further down the tree, millions and millions of years, find an entirely different branch, and then follow that branch through different genetic variants, past numerous other dead-end branches, past other branches leading to other modern species, and then you'll find the modern ape. Never the twain shall meet.

Myth #2: Evolution is like a tornado in a junkyard forming a perfect 747.

This is a popular manifestation of the argument that evolution depends on randomness, and so it would be impossible for complex structures to evolve. Well, this is half right, but completely wrong in its totality. Random mutations are one driver of evolution, but this argument completely omits evolution's key component: natural selection.

Obviously, in reality, if a tornado went through a junkyard, you'd end up with worse junk, not a perfect 747. No evolutionary biologist, or any sane person, has ever claimed that you would. It's ridiculous. The tornado is meant to represent the random element of evolution, but genes don't mutate catastrophically all at once, like a tornado. Here is a more accurate way to use this same analogy.

Imagine millions of junkyards, representing any given population. Now imagine a group of welders, who walk carefully through each junkyard, twisting this, bending that, attaching two pieces of junk here, cutting something apart there. They do it randomly and make only a limited number of small changes. Sometimes they don't change anything. This is a far more accurate representation of how genes mutate within an organism. It's not a single cataclysmic tornado.

Now comes the natural selection. Let's test every piece of junk in every junkyard. Does anything work better? Does anything work worse? With millions of changes in millions of junkyards, it's inevitable that there will be some improvements somewhere. Part of natural selection is the eventual removal from the population of any organisms that are less well adapted, so to simulate this, we're going to eliminate all the junkyards where the junk was worse after the welders made their mutations. This leaves only junkyards that are stable, or that are improved. To simulate the next generation of the species, we replicate all of our current improved gene pool of junkyards, and again send in the welders. They make a few random changes in each, or no changes at all.

Each time this entire process happens, the population of junkyards improves. But this doesn't happen just a few times. It happens millions or billions of times. The changes made by the welders are countless. The vast majority of changes are either useless or make things even junkier. Since natural selection automatically filters out the poorly adapted junkyards and rewards those rare improved junkyards with additional procreation, our population of junkyards gets better and better. Things start to take shape in the junkyards. Useful things. Stronger things. Things with abilities that nobody could have predicted. Any given piece of junk that improves is replicated in many junkyards, and reappears in millions of slightly altered forms each time. Pick the best version from each generation, and you can literally watch the same piece of junk evolve into a better, stronger, more useful, and better adapted machine with more capabilities. This is evolution.

Myth #3: Evolution is just a theory.

First of all, if you believe that most biologists consider evolution to be "just a theory", you're behind the times. Almost all biologists call it a fact, and not because they feel any particular need to respond to creationists.

Second, when creationists try to put evolution down by dismissing it as "just a theory", they're actually acknowledging its scientific validity. To understand why, it's necessary to understand exactly what a theory is. When creationists use the term to disparage evolution, they really should be using the word hypothesis. A hypothesis is a provisional idea, a suggested explanation that requires validation. Evolution is well beyond that stage, though; even the staunchest anti-evolution creationists assign evolution the much higher status of theory.

In order to qualify as a theory, evolution had to meet the following criteria:

* A theory must originate from, and be well supported by, experimental evidence. It must be supported by many strands of evidence, and not just a single foundation.
* A theory must be specific enough to be falsifiable by testing. If it cannot be tested or refuted, it can't qualify as a theory.
* A theory must make specific, testable predictions about things not yet observed.
* A theory must allow for changes based on the discovery of new evidence. It must be dynamic, tentative, and correctable.

Notice that last one: tentative, correctable, and allowing for future changes. Creationists often point out that the theory of evolution is incomplete, like any theory, as if this disproves it. To be a theory, evolution must be incomplete by definition, and (no pun intended), constantly evolving.

The strict scientific definition of a fact is both simpler and hazier. A fact is a verifiable observation, and evolution is verified so many times throughout the entire science of biology that most biologists call it a fact. However many scientists contend that every fact has some element of theory to it, so in this sense, it doesn't really make any difference whether evolution is called a fact or a theory. Since biologists are always learning more and adding to our knowledge of evolution, it's probably best to leave it as a theory.

I hope some creationists find value in these explanations. As always, your comments are welcome on the web site.
 
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4010#


Myth #1: Men evolved from modern apes.

OH yeah, well how did the TREE evolve? How did the tree get there? There is no proof that the tree evolved, so someone must have made it. it's the only logical conclusion.


* A theory must be specific enough to be falsifiable by testing. If it cannot be tested or refuted, it can't qualify as a theory.

please show me how to test evolution. I don't see men coming from monkeys do you? Where are the test tubes with frogs turning into birds?!?!
 
Watermark/ib1,

What experimental evidence supports macroevolution? Please do not respond with the usual "you're an idiot" line, as I am sincerely interested in knowing the answer, not being insulted. We're both adults and should be able to carry on a discussion like grown-ups.

The only experiment I know of is the Miller-Urey experiment, which only demonstrated that complex molecules arise under certain conditions, which are themselves based on arbitrary assumptions about the early Earth's atmospheric composition. Surely there must be greater experimental evidence than that. What am I missing?
 
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4010#

An Evolution Primer for Creationists

Skeptoid #10


Some creationists may be concerned that some of their standard arguments against evolution sound dismissive or patronizing. This is probably true: in any debate, it's common to frame your opponent's arguments in a weak light. Sometimes this is done deliberately to make evolution sound ridiculous, and sometimes it's done accidentally through ignorance of what evolution is and how it works. Since misinformation and ignorance are poor platforms on which to build any conversation, I present the following Evolution 101 Primer for the benefit of creationists who want a correct basic understanding of their foe. I think the best way to do this is to dispel the three most common evolution myths.

I think we should start by dispelling the myth that "evolution" can be argued against "creation." ET deals with species changing, CT deals with origin. It is entirely possible for both theories to be correct, and many think that is the case. It is also possible that neither theory is correct. However, it is a fact, evolution doesn't explain or deal with the origination of life. If you want to believe this, that's fine, but in order to establish it as a fact, you have to present evidence, and you have none.


Myth #1: Men evolved from modern apes.

This is the oldest and wrongest misconception about evolution. Nobody has ever suggested that one living species changes into a different living species. Some criticisms of evolution show illustrations that fraudulently purport to show what evolutionists claim: that a salmon changed into a turtle, which changed into an alligator, which changed into a hippo, which changed into a lion, and then into a monkey, and then into a human being. Of course such a theory would seem ludicrous. But it's pure fantasy and has nothing in common with real evolution.

Agreed! I have never heard anyone claim that humans evolved from modern apes. These apes would not have existed until modern times, hence the name, so I think it would be illogical to conclude such a thing. However, people certainly have suggested one species changed into another, and if you agree this is not possible, it puts to rest any possibility for evolution to explain billions of life forms. The fact is, we have all of this life, and if it is impossible for one species to change into another, then it is impossible for evolution to explain it.

The diversification of species is like a forest of trees, sprouting from the proverbial primordial soup. Many trees die out. Some don't grow very tall. Some have grown a lot over the eons and are still growing today. Trees branch out, and branches branch out themselves, but branches never come back together or combine from two different trees. The path of a species' evolution is shaped like the branch of a tree, not a donut, not a figure 8, not a ladder. To embrace evolution, you need not — must not — think that a salmon turns into a zebra, or that an ape turns into a man. It's simply not genetically possible.

When an oak tree branches, it doesn't change what it is at all, it's still "Quercus robur" it will never be an elm tree, a cypress tree, or a pine tree. It certainly will not be a cold-blooded animal. Now, I get what you are saying, you aren't talking specifically about the oak tree here, you are illustrating how species evolved... but... you just said that species don't change to other species. So, the only way it is possible for there to be billions of species of life, is for these species to have existed all along. Did billions of species just magically appear, or what? To form an argument with evolution explaining origin, you simply can't avoid this detail, and since it is impossible for evolution to have been responsible for billions of life forms, then it can't explain origin. Therefore, it is an invalid argument to compare it with creationism.

We've all seen the other famous illustration, where a monkey morphs into an ape, that morphs into a caveman, that morphs into homo sapiens. If you climb back down the tree branch, you will indeed find earlier versions of man where he was smaller, hairier, and dumber, but it won't be a modern ape. To find a modern ape, you'd need to go even further down the tree, millions and millions of years, find an entirely different branch, and then follow that branch through different genetic variants, past numerous other dead-end branches, past other branches leading to other modern species, and then you'll find the modern ape. Never the twain shall meet.

Well this seems to totally contradict what you previously said. You agree, it is impossible for one species to change into another, yet that is precisely what you indicate may have happened with man. Evolution theory doesn't support this, nature doesn't support this, and science doesn't support this.

Myth #2: Evolution is like a tornado in a junkyard forming a perfect 747.

This is a popular manifestation of the argument that evolution depends on randomness, and so it would be impossible for complex structures to evolve. Well, this is half right, but completely wrong in its totality. Random mutations are one driver of evolution, but this argument completely omits evolution's key component: natural selection.

Obviously, in reality, if a tornado went through a junkyard, you'd end up with worse junk, not a perfect 747. No evolutionary biologist, or any sane person, has ever claimed that you would. It's ridiculous. The tornado is meant to represent the random element of evolution, but genes don't mutate catastrophically all at once, like a tornado. Here is a more accurate way to use this same analogy.

Imagine millions of junkyards, representing any given population. Now imagine a group of welders, who walk carefully through each junkyard, twisting this, bending that, attaching two pieces of junk here, cutting something apart there. They do it randomly and make only a limited number of small changes. Sometimes they don't change anything. This is a far more accurate representation of how genes mutate within an organism. It's not a single cataclysmic tornado.

Again, I have never heard any creationist claim this. However, it is interesting, your example clearly shows intelligent input at play. Intelligent design is indeed logical, and you just gave the perfect analogy to support it. You also illustrated how it is quite impossible for random acts of nature to have created the life we have all around us.
Now comes the natural selection. Let's test every piece of junk in every junkyard. Does anything work better? Does anything work worse? With millions of changes in millions of junkyards, it's inevitable that there will be some improvements somewhere. Part of natural selection is the eventual removal from the population of any organisms that are less well adapted, so to simulate this, we're going to eliminate all the junkyards where the junk was worse after the welders made their mutations. This leaves only junkyards that are stable, or that are improved. To simulate the next generation of the species, we replicate all of our current improved gene pool of junkyards, and again send in the welders. They make a few random changes in each, or no changes at all.

Each time this entire process happens, the population of junkyards improves. But this doesn't happen just a few times. It happens millions or billions of times. The changes made by the welders are countless. The vast majority of changes are either useless or make things even junkier. Since natural selection automatically filters out the poorly adapted junkyards and rewards those rare improved junkyards with additional procreation, our population of junkyards gets better and better. Things start to take shape in the junkyards. Useful things. Stronger things. Things with abilities that nobody could have predicted. Any given piece of junk that improves is replicated in many junkyards, and reappears in millions of slightly altered forms each time. Pick the best version from each generation, and you can literally watch the same piece of junk evolve into a better, stronger, more useful, and better adapted machine with more capabilities. This is evolution.

Again... You use an example dependent upon intelligent input. Are you saying "evolution" is ultimately controlled by intelligent input? As I said earlier, many people believe both theories can be true.

Myth #3: Evolution is just a theory.

First of all, if you believe that most biologists consider evolution to be "just a theory", you're behind the times. Almost all biologists call it a fact, and not because they feel any particular need to respond to creationists.

Second, when creationists try to put evolution down by dismissing it as "just a theory", they're actually acknowledging its scientific validity. To understand why, it's necessary to understand exactly what a theory is. When creationists use the term to disparage evolution, they really should be using the word hypothesis. A hypothesis is a provisional idea, a suggested explanation that requires validation. Evolution is well beyond that stage, though; even the staunchest anti-evolution creationists assign evolution the much higher status of theory.

In order to qualify as a theory, evolution had to meet the following criteria:

* A theory must originate from, and be well supported by, experimental evidence. It must be supported by many strands of evidence, and not just a single foundation.
* A theory must be specific enough to be falsifiable by testing. If it cannot be tested or refuted, it can't qualify as a theory.
* A theory must make specific, testable predictions about things not yet observed.
* A theory must allow for changes based on the discovery of new evidence. It must be dynamic, tentative, and correctable.

Notice that last one: tentative, correctable, and allowing for future changes. Creationists often point out that the theory of evolution is incomplete, like any theory, as if this disproves it. To be a theory, evolution must be incomplete by definition, and (no pun intended), constantly evolving.

The strict scientific definition of a fact is both simpler and hazier. A fact is a verifiable observation, and evolution is verified so many times throughout the entire science of biology that most biologists call it a fact. However many scientists contend that every fact has some element of theory to it, so in this sense, it doesn't really make any difference whether evolution is called a fact or a theory. Since biologists are always learning more and adding to our knowledge of evolution, it's probably best to leave it as a theory.

I hope some creationists find value in these explanations. As always, your comments are welcome on the web site.

The Theory of Evolution is indeed a theory. It doesn't matter what you claim scientists believe, or how they view it. The simple fact is, we have never been able to recreate the process of evolution to any large degree. Mostly confined to organisms in a petri dish, bacteria, etc. It was only a few years ago, we were able to successfully 'clone' a sheep. This man made production of life is simply not possible without the aid of a mother's womb.

There are numerous species in which evolution has no answer. The giraffe is a good example, it remains largely unchanged since prehistoric times. A rhinoceros is another example of a species which hasn't "evolved" at all... a "modern" rhino is the same as a prehistoric one. Evolution theorizes that certain species have adapted and changed with time, because of environment and circumstances of survival. I have no problem accepting that theory, but I think it pays remarkable tribute to the miracle of creation. Whatever created life to begin with, also instilled the ability of this life to adapt and change with environment.
 
Watermark/ib1,

What experimental evidence supports macroevolution? Please do not respond with the usual "you're an idiot" line, as I am sincerely interested in knowing the answer, not being insulted. We're both adults and should be able to carry on a discussion like grown-ups.

The only experiment I know of is the Miller-Urey experiment, which only demonstrated that complex molecules arise under certain conditions, which are themselves based on arbitrary assumptions about the early Earth's atmospheric composition. Surely there must be greater experimental evidence than that. What am I missing?

There's evidence of evolution in that we have fossils that we can date at being several or hundreds of millions of years old.

As for the origin of life, there's never been a satisfactory explanation for that, although that doesn't mean we should stop searching. The religious excuse itself isn't satisfactory either.
 
There's evidence of evolution in that we have fossils that we can date at being several or hundreds of millions of years old.

As for the origin of life, there's never been a satisfactory explanation for that, although that doesn't mean we should stop searching. The religious excuse itself isn't satisfactory either.

I'm glad you have finally backed away from attempting to compare Evolution with Creationism, since they are totally unrelated in what they address.

There is "evidence" of evolution, but "evidence" is not proof. This is why Evolution remains a theory and not a proven fact. I admit, it is a very good and sound theory for how certain species may have changed to adapt to their environment, but I don't think this precludes or nullifies any theory regarding creation.

You are correct, science should never stop searching... this means, you shouldn't assume life was not the result of intelligent design. That is indeed a conclusion, which means you've stopped searching. You should also try to not allow your viewpoint to be prejudiced by your personal faith, or lack thereof. ID is not a "religious excuse" it is well reasoned logic, much of which is based upon the very points you initially made in this thread. It is impossible for one species to "evolve" into another, so how do we get from a single living organism to literally billions of living organisms of diverse complexity? Evolution does not explain this, and you readily admitted this, so what is the theory? You gave examples which are excellent at illustrating how "randomness" can't produce the results we have. It's a logical theory that if randomness can't be responsible, design by intelligence may be. There is nothing "religious" about that, it's just plain old logic. It isn't an "excuse" it is a plausible and logical explanation.

I don't know the source of intelligence which created life, but I don't need to identify it to theorize it existed. This doesn't mean I believe the God of Abraham created life as depicted in Genesis, or that any Deity was involved. It simply means that logic dictates, intelligent design was somehow involved in the origins of life. I also believe Evolution is an attribute bestowed by the Creator, to enable life to flourish. To me, evolution is something that actually supports the theory of intelligent design!
 
Evolution is a theory that explains that life evolved from bacteria to all the life we see today.

No one has ever said that evolution is the theory explaining how abiogenisis came about. That would be nonsensical.

There is no widely accepted theory on how abiogenisis came about and started evolution. But the religious one is by far the least reputable and holds no followers amongst serious biologists. It's stupid to say we have to accept the least likely hypothesis simply because no acceptable theory of abiogenisis has arisen.
 
There is "evidence" of evolution, but "evidence" is not proof.

Evidence is proof. If by proof you mean that something has to be 100% certain, then there's no such thing as proof anywhere. However, we have enough proofs of evolution that it's silly not to believe that it happened.
 
Is it? In your initial post, you stated that it is not a theory, but a fact.

Which is it?
Do you know what the meaning of a Scientific Theory is?

The word theory has several different meanings depending on what field you are working in. For example a scientific theory is not the same thing as a theory in the mind of a detective seeking evidence to arrest somebody for a crime.

A scientific theory is supported by testing and empirical (observed) evidence and is capable of predicting an outcome.

There are many people who wonder if "theory" should be used because of the main disconnect most people have when discussing this. Something doesn't reach the level of theory in science without strong evidence and verified testing.

In the case of Evolution, it is an observed fact (empirical evidence) as well as testable by predicting what types of bones, etc. can be found.

The United States Academy of Sciences describes a Theory this way:
Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

I hope this helps to clear it up a bit. Evolution is an observable fact that is one part of the substantiated tested and empirical evidence that supports the Theory of Evolution.
 
Is it? In your initial post, you stated that it is not a theory, but a fact.

Which is it?

Well first off, it was not my post. It's an article from the blog/podcast Skeptoid that I thought made a pretty good point. I never stated anything in it.

And I believe Damo adequately addressed your question.
 
Evolution is a theory that explains that life evolved from bacteria to all the life we see today.

No one has ever said that evolution is the theory explaining how abiogenisis came about. That would be nonsensical.

There is no widely accepted theory on how abiogenisis came about and started evolution. But the religious one is by far the least reputable and holds no followers amongst serious biologists. It's stupid to say we have to accept the least likely hypothesis simply because no acceptable theory of abiogenisis has arisen.

I should edit this to say that while some biologists may believe that God caused abiogenisis to come about, they'd still like to know how he did it. So they'd work on creating a reputable theory as well.
 
Evolution is a theory that explains that life evolved from bacteria to all the life we see today.

No one has ever said that evolution is the theory explaining how abiogenisis came about. That would be nonsensical.

There is no widely accepted theory on how abiogenisis came about and started evolution. But the religious one is by far the least reputable and holds no followers amongst serious biologists. It's stupid to say we have to accept the least likely hypothesis simply because no acceptable theory of abiogenisis has arisen.

Previously, you said.... "This is the oldest and wrongest misconception about evolution. Nobody has ever suggested that one living species changes into a different living species."

So which fucking one is it? Did all species of life evolve from a single organism? If so, where is your evidence to support that theory? There is absolutely NO archeological evidence to suggest any species has "evolved" into another entirely different species! There is no biological evidence, there is no physiological evidence, there is no scientific evidence of this.

Darwin's theory is regarding adaptation of species, how they changed according to environment, how they changed in order to survive. Nowhere is it suggested by Darwin, that all life originated from a single organism, and his theories do not support such an idea. So, where are you getting this stupidity from?
 
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