Celsus' criticisms of Jesus and Christianity

[Cypress]

Celsus was a Greek philosopher in the mid-second century who criticized Christianity as a threat to the stable communities

Jesus
Celsus accuses Jesus of having "invented his birth from a virgin," and upbraids him with being "born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery.

After being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, Mary disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty.

In Egypt he acquired some magical powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of his Egyptian magic, and by means of these proclaimed himself a God.

Christianity
Celsus states that Christianity was a phenomenon limited primarily to the lower class. As a religion it actively recruits only those of a "uninstructed and rustic character": the uneducated, women, slaves, the poor. If an individual was from the upper class, and therefore well-educated and naturally of good character, they would not be converted because they could not possibly believe in the absurd assumptions one had to in order to be considered "Christian".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Word

https://www.bluffton.edu/courses/humanities/1/celsus.htm

 

[Daylight63]

Celsus noted how many of the aspects of Christ's life were very similar to previous pagan gods. As did many others in the ancient world.

It was so notable that one of the Church Fathers (Justin Martyr) came up with the idea of "Diabolical Mimicry" in which Satan knew Jesus was going to show up one day so he created false religions to pre-date it to make people question Jesus' ministry.

For as much as I love some of the early philosophical work of the church fathers and the later Scholastics, this sort of stuff makes you realize not every Church Father was great at the game.

 

[Cypress]

Celsus noted how many of the aspects of Christ's life were very similar to previous pagan gods. As did many others in the ancient world.

It was so notable that one of the Church Fathers (Justin Martyr) came up with the idea of "Diabolical Mimicry" in which Satan knew Jesus was going to show up one day so he created false religions to pre-date it to make people question Jesus' ministry.

For as much as I love some of the early philosophical work of the church fathers and the later Scholastics, this sort of stuff makes you realize not every Church Father was great at the game.

What's historically interesting to me is that the Talmud arguably also compiles an oral tradition stating that Jesus was a sorcerer, a false prophet, and he was born from an adultress. So that kind of alternative narrative was floating around the eastern Mediterranean

 

[Daylight63]

What's historically interesting to me is that the Talmud arguably also compiles an oral tradition stating that Jesus was a sorcerer, a false prophet, and he was born from an adultress. So that kind of alternative narrative was floating around the eastern Mediterranean

I just think it is fascinating that even the ancients knew there was something strange about the narrative of Christ's life being so similar to PREVIOUS pagan gods' narratives.

Almost makes one think a lot of the Gospels were made up for religions purposes, doesn't it? (Not for you, obviously...but for an objective reader)

 

[Cypress]

Almost makes one think a lot of the Gospels were made up for religions purposes, doesn't it?

That question is way too vague and unfocused. Explain exactly what part of the Gospels were made up out of whole cloth. The whole thing? Parts of it? Which parts?

(Not for you, obviously...but for an objective reader)

Explain why you felt it necessary to inject a gratuitous insult into this thread

 

[Daylight63]

That question is way too vague and unfocused. Explain exactly what part of the Gospels were made up out of whole cloth. The whole thing? Parts of it? Which parts?

Hmmm, how about the "dying and resurrection" (a common theme among earlier pagan gods like Osiris, Adonis, etc.). Birth to a virgin (common theme).

Explain why you felt it necessary to inject a gratuitous insult into this thread

Not an insult. Why would you think that???? Am I not allowed to question Christianity?

Again, you seem to be a fierce defender of morality you don't even believe in. Curious.

 

[Cypress]

Hmmm, how about the "dying and resurrection" (a common theme among earlier pagan gods like Osiris, Adonis, etc.). Birth to a virgin (common theme).

The resurrection defies everyday experience.

But you claim the story was "made up".

The balance of evidence contradicts your assumption.

People are not willing to die for something they know was a lie, they know was fabricated, they know was made up.

Several of the apostles choose suffering and death rather than recant their belief they had seen Jesus after his crucifixion. People don't do that for something they know was fabricated.

If we rule out they "made it up", possible explanations are:

1) The apostles were all hallucinating.
2) They were all mentally ill.
3) Jesus did not die on the cross.
4) Something miraculous happened.

I tend towards #3.

Not an insult. Why would you think that???? Am I not allowed to question Christianity?

Again, you seem to be a fierce defender of morality you don't even believe in. Curious.

So you claim saying I am not objective isn't a gratuitous insult. Does lying come naturally to you Perry PhD?

Between the two of us, I am the only one that gets attacked by both atheists and by bible thumpers. That is a testament that I try to play it down the middle of the road.

You only get attacked by bible thumpers, which is testimony that you cling to a militant atheist agenda.

Clearly, I am more objective.

 

[Hume]

Celsus was a Greek philosopher in the mid-second century who criticized Christianity as a threat to the stable communities

Jesus
Celsus accuses Jesus of having "invented his birth from a virgin," and upbraids him with being "born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery.

After being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, Mary disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty.

In Egypt he acquired some magical powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of his Egyptian magic, and by means of these proclaimed himself a God.

Christianity
Celsus states that Christianity was a phenomenon limited primarily to the lower class. As a religion it actively recruits only those of a "uninstructed and rustic character": the uneducated, women, slaves, the poor. If an individual was from the upper class, and therefore well-educated and naturally of good character, they would not be converted because they could not possibly believe in the absurd assumptions one had to in order to be considered "Christian".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Word

https://www.bluffton.edu/courses/humanities/1/celsus.htm

Very little in Christianity makes sense.

 

[Daylight63]

The resurrection defies everyday experience.

Yes! And it was quite common for pagan gods to die and be resurrected apparently.

But you claim the story was "made up".

I don't believe people come back from the dead. Sorry.

The balance of evidence contradicts your assumption.

Really? Or do you just hope it does?

People are not willing to die for something they know was a lie, they know was fabricated, they know was made up.

Like the people in Jonestown or the people in Waco?

So you claim saying I am not objective isn't a gratuitous insult. Does lying come naturally to you Perry PhD?

I have been excessively pleasant to you and you just heap hatred on me. And when I point out one thing you blow a gasket and whine about insults.

Perhaps in your zeal to "act like you give a fuck about Jesus teachings" you could hit up Luke 6:31.

 

[Daylight63]

Very little in Christianity makes sense.

Agreed certainly on the homoousiosness and soteriology. But the teachings kind of make sense. Too bad you are so filled with hatred that you can't possibly appreciate them.

Perhaps one day the darkness will lift for you and you can be a decent human being.

 

[Cypress]

Yes! And it was quite common for pagan gods to die and be resurrected apparently.

There's a way to test that for reliability. Were they buried and then their tombs found empty?

I don't believe people come back from the dead. Sorry.

I dont either and that's not what my post says. So you can't rebut my line of reasoning.

Like the people in Jonestown or the people in Waco?

So you believe Christianity is just like the Jonesboro cult? I don't think I've ever heard a militant atheist take it that far.
I don't think anyone who reads Romans can come away thinking Paul was insane.

I have been excessively pleasant to you and you just heap hatred on me.

Please link me to one post of mine that can reasonably be construed as "heaping hatred on you", as opposed to me just stating my opinions.

Failure to produce a link will be taken as proof you don't have one.