China & Russia's military ties are 'phony,' but there still isn't much they can do

Bill

Malarkeyville
China & Russia's military ties are 'phony,' but there still isn't much they can do

US leaders say China and Russia's military ties are 'phony,' but there still isn't much they can do about them

putin-and-xi-tosat.jpg

Christopher Woody

Wed, June 23, 2021, 8:16 AM·8 min read


Chinese President Xi Jinping with Russian President Vladimir Putin at a summit in China's Fujian Province, September 4, 2017. REUTERS/Wu Hong/Pool
Russia and China's growing ties and military cooperation have worried Western leaders.

Those ties may not be as deep and durable as they appear, but they won't be easy to undermine either.

The NATO summit last week focused on the challenges posed by Russia and China but made scant mention of those countries' increasing military cooperation, which has worried US leaders and their partners around the world.

The 14,400-word, 79-paragraph communique released at the end of the summit expressed concern about Russia's and China's military build-ups and "assertive" behavior.

Their military cooperation was mentioned once, in a sentence in the 55th paragraph: China "is also cooperating militarily with Russia, including through participation in Russian exercises in the Euro-Atlantic area."

The Chinese and Russian militaries have held joint exercises for more a decade. A 2015 exercise was their first in the Mediterranean, followed by their first in the Baltic in 2017. (China has conducted exercises with NATO members.)

"I see cooperation that is superficial at best. I think it is higher at the tactical level, soldier-to-soldier, and I think it is pretty close to phony at the strategic level," Gen. Tod Wolters, the head of US European Command, told the Senate Armed Services Committee in April.

Russian Navy day parade Russia and China
Russian and Chinese warships in a Navy Day parade near St. Petersburg, Russia, July 30, 2017. Reuters
Adm. Philip Davidson, who led US Indo-Pacific Command until his retirement in April, told the committee in March that he saw "some collaboration" between Russia and China in the "tactical and operational space."

"I think that there is less cooperation, although frequent discussion, at the strategic level. Through all of it, I view it with some alarm," Davidson said.

A senior Biden administration official told Politico this month that over the past decade the relationship has become "more concerning," operating as "almost a quasi-alliance."

Russia and China have pursued closer ties in part to counter Western countries and their partners, who see Russia's campaign against Ukraine and China's bullying in the South China Sea as troubling. While there is uncertainty about their exact level of coordination, the relationship has advanced quickly, according to Matthew Rojansky, director of the Kennan Institute at the Wilson Center think tank.

"If you compare, let's say, 10 or 15 years ago to the last five years, you definitely see Russia supplying more and more advanced technology to China. You see the Chinese being more willing to at least do exercises or have a presence out of their immediate neighborhood in East Asia," Rojansky told Insider, calling China's participation in those Euro-Atlantic exercises "very significant."

'A functional non-aggression pact'
Russian President Vladimir Putin with Chinese soldier
Putin at a parade during Russia's Vostok 2018 military exercises, in which China participated for the first time, September 13, 2018. Alexei Nikolsky\TASS via Getty Images
Sino-Soviet relations devolved early in the Cold War, leading to a split in the early 1960s. They normalized ties in 1989, and security cooperation has been the most important part of the relationship between Russian and Chinese leaders since then.

"When China wanted to jumpstart the modernization of its air force and its navy in the early 1990s, it went out and purchased Russian planes and ships - primarily the Su-27 and the Sovremenny destroyers - because Russia had the best military technology that China could purchase," M. Taylor Fravel, a professor and dirctor of the security studies program at MIT, said at an event in April.

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Evidence of Russian influence can be seen in the weaponry and tactics of China's ground, air, and naval forces, according to Lyle Goldstein, a research professor and expert on the Chinese military at the US Naval War College.

"For sure, China has learned much from Russia [and] studying Russian tactics over the years," Goldstein said at an event in March, adding that China's study extends to Russian "intimidation tactics" used against Ukraine in the Black Sea.

Chinese bomber
A Chinese H-6K bomber is seen on a joint patrol with Russian aircraft over the Western Pacific, December 22, 2020. Russian Defense Ministry Press Service via AP
At the hearing in March, Davidson told senators that China has participated in the annual "capstone exercise" for Russia's military districts "for three straight years," which is seen as a demonstration their closer ties.

Davidson also cited Russia and China's "co-bomber flights" over the Sea of Japan and the East China Sea in 2019 and 2020 - exercises that Goldstein described as "brandishing" of their air forces and that alarmed South Korea and Japan.

The 2019 exercise was "a joint operation" that included "surveillance and intelligence systems talking to one another," Alexey Muraviev, a professor at Australia's Curtain University, told Insider in an interview last year, adding that Russia's combat experience made it the leading partner in such exercises.

"The Chinese don't have the opportunity to operate and exercise alongside any other major military power," Muraviev said. "So for them to learn about innovation on the battlefield, to actually adopt network-centric approach, to be introduced to maneuver warfare - it's all coming from Russian manuals and exercising with the Russians."

China Chinese PLA tanks
Chinese tanks at Russia's Vostok 2018 military exercise, September 13, 2018. Vadim Savitsky\TASS via Getty Images
Muraviev, an expert on Russian security policy in the Pacific, described the Russia-China relationship as a "near defense alliance."

At a Senate hearing in April, Lt. Gen. Scott Berrier, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, echoed Wolters and Davidson, calling Sino-Russia cooperation "opportunistic and transactional" and arguing neither wanted "a deep military alliance" as they had more "flexibility" without one.

Michael Kofman, senior research scientist at the CNA think tank, has written that while Russia and China don't have "a functional military alliance per se" and their relationship is "at bare minimum a functional non-aggression pact" that allows each to "focus on the United States, believing the other will not stab it in the back."

While arms sales don't drive that relationship, they do benefit both Russia and China, though Moscow may shift from seller to contractor as Beijing's capabilities advance, Kofman wrote last year.

China still seeks advanced technologies, some of which, like jet engines, Russia has been reluctant to sell, said Fravel, an expert on the Chinese military.

"China, I think, is still trying to import and to fill in gaps in technology where Russia has experience and advantages, and that may be shrinking over time as China's industrial base matures and as its technical capacities grow," Fravel added.

'A new type of great-power relations'
xi putin toast
Xi and Putin toast during a visit to the Far East Street exhibition in Vladivostok, Russia, September 11, 2018. Sergei Bobylev/TASS Host Photo Agency/Pool via Reuters
President Xi Jinping and President Vladimir Putin have met dozens of times in recent years, and they and other officials in their governments have touted that relationship in glowing terms, but it still has faultlines.

China has ambitions in the Arctic and a growing presence in Central Asia - both areas where Russia has long been the influential power.

"The limitations are clear on the peripheries, in particular the Arctic and in Central Asia," Elizabeth Wishnick, a professor and expert on Chinese foreign policy at Montclair State University, said at an event in May.

Moscow and Beijing have formally settled border disputes that sparked deadly fighting in 1969, but they remain potential fodder for future leaders seeking to stoke nationalist sentiment. China's aggressive approach to territorial claims elsewhere has been noted in Russia.

"I think [in] Russia at a certain level, probably just below the senior leadership levels, there is definitely concern about China's growing presence everywhere," Christopher Bort, a former national intelligence officer for Russia and Eurasia on the US's National Intelligence Council, said at an event in April.

"They are able to work through potential competition, but, as many people have noted, [this] is going to be a problem, perhaps for the next generation of Russia's leaders," Bort added.

But Western countries' ability to exploit those fissures is limited, experts said.

more @ source
 
I have told hand wringing Deplorables that China and Russia are not natural allies, and there is zero percent chance they will become a modern day Warsaw Pact of the east.
 
I have told hand wringing Deplorables that China and Russia are not natural allies, and there is zero percent chance they will become a modern day Warsaw Pact of the east.

You have Chinese dick shoved so far down your throat it's tickling your liver. Fuck outta here with your proclamations.
 
I have told hand wringing Deplorables that China and Russia are not natural allies, and there is zero percent chance they will become a modern day Warsaw Pact of the east.

Yep.... Russia, like the UK, France, USA & the rest of the great powers/west are all part of the Century of Humiliation & Russia has lots of turf China conveniently believes belongs to them.
 
Yep.... Russia, like the UK, France, USA & the rest of the great powers/west are all part of the Century of Humiliation & Russia has lots of turf China conveniently believes belongs to them.

You are well read and informed.
Your garden variety Deplorable is not.
 
Putin is old


Russia will crumble into a sink hole once the KGB king of Russia dies


Then China will just pluck the fruit from the tree
 
Daily reminder that General Douglas MacArthur was right and we should have nuked Beijing in the 1950s.
 
It was the hard decisions made by Yeltsin in the mid-90s that afforded Russia the level of stability it has today that affords Putin the ability to have the global reach that he presently has. Regardless of what comes after him, we shouldn't expect Russia to suddenly fall back into post-Soviet collapse.
 
It was the hard decisions made by Yeltsin in the mid-90s that afforded Russia the level of stability it has today that affords Putin the ability to have the global reach that he presently has. Regardless of what comes after him, we shouldn't expect Russia to suddenly fall back into post-Soviet collapse.

Not sure what you mean by falling back into the collapse??
 
Not sure what you mean by falling back into the collapse??

It was his economic measures that took Russia from post-Soviet collapse to the Age of Putin. If you discount him, then you probably never see Russia make the kind of recovery that has enabled Putin to run his autocratic regime with a high degree of stability to rely upon.
 
On the other hand when was the last time the American Brain Trust was right about either China or Russia?
 
I have told hand wringing Deplorables that China and Russia are not natural allies, and there is zero percent chance they will become a modern day Warsaw Pact of the east.
you sound like this guy

At a Senate hearing in April, Lt. Gen. Scott Berrier, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, echoed Wolters and Davidson, calling Sino-Russia cooperation "opportunistic and transactional" and arguing neither wanted "a deep military alliance" as they had more "flexibility" without one.
this dweeb totally misses the fact that realpolitik IS all based on transactional relations.
Further since that interaction helps both (or more) states - the likelihood of more and more cooperation is the logical outcome. no formal alliance needed.

However Putin has said that if pushed far enough, he would make a military alliance if no other recourse
 
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