climate models unreliable

tinfoil

Banned
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071211101623.htm


New Study Increases Concerns About Climate Model Reliability

ScienceDaily (Dec. 12, 2007) — A new study comparing the composite output of 22 leading global climate models with actual climate data finds that the models do an unsatisfactory job of mimicking climate change in key portions of the atmosphere.

This research, published online in the Royal Meteorological Society's International Journal of Climatology, raises new concerns about the reliability of models used to forecast global warming.

"The usual discussion is whether the climate model forecasts of Earth's climate 100 years or so into the future are realistic," said the lead author, Dr. David H. Douglass from the University of Rochester. "Here we have something more fundamental: Can the models accurately explain the climate from the recent past? "It seems that the answer is no."

Scientists from Rochester, the University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH) and the University of Virginia compared the climate change "forecasts" from the 22 most widely-cited global circulation models with tropical temperature data collected by surface, satellite and balloon sensors. The models predicted that the lower atmosphere should warm significantly more than it actually did.

"Models are very consistent in forecasting a significant difference between climate trends at the surface and in the troposphere, the layer of atmosphere between the surface and the stratosphere," said Dr. John Christy, director of UAH's Earth System Science Center. "The models forecast that the troposphere should be warming more than the surface and that this trend should be especially pronounced in the tropics.

"When we look at actual climate data, however, we do not see accelerated warming in the tropical troposphere. Instead, the lower and middle atmosphere are warming the same or less than the surface. For those layers of the atmosphere, the warming trend we see in the tropics is typically less than half of what the models forecast."

The 22 climate models used in this study are the same models used by the UN Intergovernmental Panel of Climate Change (IPCC), which recently shared a Nobel Peace Prize with former Vice President Al Gore.

The atmospheric temperature data were from two versions of data collected by sensors aboard NOAA satellites since late 1979, plus several sets of temperature data gathered twice a day at dozens of points in the tropics by thermometers carried into the atmosphere by helium balloons. The surface data were from three datasets.

After years of rigorous analysis and testing, the high degree of agreement between the various atmospheric data sets gives an equally high level of confidence in the basic accuracy of the climate data.

"The last 25 years constitute a period of more complete and accurate observations, and more realistic modeling efforts," said Dr. Fred Singer from the University of Virginia. "Nonetheless, the models are seen to disagree with the observations. We suggest, therefore, that projections of future climate based on these models should be viewed with much caution."

The findings of this study contrast strongly with those of a recent study that used 19 of the same climate models and similar climate datasets. That study concluded that any difference between model forecasts and atmospheric climate data is probably due to errors in the data.

"The question was, what would the models 'forecast' for upper air climate change over the past 25 years and how would that forecast compare to reality?" said Christy. "To answer that we needed climate model results that matched the actual surface temperature changes during that same time. If the models got the surface trend right but the tropospheric trend wrong, then we could pinpoint a potential problem in the models.

"As it turned out, the average of all of the climate models forecasts came out almost like the actual surface trend in the tropics. That meant we could do a very robust test of their reproduction of the lower atmosphere.

"Instead of averaging the model forecasts to get a result whose surface trends match reality, the earlier study looked at the widely scattered range of results from all of the model runs combined. Many of the models had surface trends that were quite different from the actual trend," Christy said. "Nonetheless, that study concluded that since both the surface and upper atmosphere trends were somewhere in that broad range of model results, any disagreement between the climate data and the models was probably due to faulty data.

"We think our experiment is more robust and provides more meaningful results."
 
Of course they are not exactly right. Can we forecast the weather 4 weeks ahead and be right on the money ?
It is a developing science.

But keep it up with the everything is fine rhetoric.
 
Of course they are not exactly right. Can we forecast the weather 4 weeks ahead and be right on the money ?
It is a developing science.

But keep it up with the everything is fine rhetoric.

Maybe I'm wrong here, did you just basically say, 'well the science is inexact, but go ahead and criticize, you are just a Luddite for such criticism.' Meaning, there is no there, there.
 
things are changing so rapidly that detailed climate models cannot keep up

in some ways it is like playing wackamole

but it is all we have

we have just experienced two years of drought, cooler summers and colder winters

this in sunny santa ynez river valley about 1/2 hour northwest of santa barbara,ca


yep, things are a changing and we will not like it - if the remaining ice on greenland melts, it would raise the mean ocean level 22 ft

oh well

got to go for a while
 
Maybe I'm wrong here, did you just basically say, 'well the science is inexact, but go ahead and criticize, you are just a Luddite for such criticism.' Meaning, there is no there, there.

No, he didn't say that. What you just constructed is called a "strawman". I hope you enjoy it, I'm sure it'll make a good lover. But defeating it isn't going to win your argument.
 
No, he didn't say that. What you just constructed is called a "strawman". I hope you enjoy it, I'm sure it'll make a good lover. But defeating it isn't going to win your argument.

Thanks for the clarification for someone else. I think that was the strawman.
 
The problem is as scientists begin to look at these models and see that they don't really prove anything and they can't possibly provide any evidence of what if any affect we are having on the climate. For the end of the worlders it has become THEIR Inconvienent Truth.
 
I see the warming tards really don't understand how climate science works. If they think it's an exact science, they are truly ignorant. Here's the evidence that we are being scammed. The models not only fail to predict unknown climate changes in the future, but the can't even predict climate changes that have been observed in the recent past.

Biut go ahead you morons like watermark. Go ahead and continue your faith in AGW. It's a religion.
 
I see the warming tards really don't understand how climate science works. If they think it's an exact science, they are truly ignorant. Here's the evidence that we are being scammed. The models not only fail to predict unknown climate changes in the future, but the can't even predict climate changes that have been observed in the recent past.

Biut go ahead you morons like watermark. Go ahead and continue your faith in AGW. It's a religion.


I have never thought climate models were an exact science.

And this has absolutely zero to do with AGW. Why do you think this has anything to do with AGW?
 
I have never thought climate models were an exact science.

And this has absolutely zero to do with AGW. Why do you think this has anything to do with AGW?


LOL yeah it has nothing to do with AGW. The climate models used to make the case for anthropogenic global warming have nothing to do with anthropogenic global warming. Awesome argument lori
 
LOL yeah it has nothing to do with AGW. The climate models used to make the case for anthropogenic global warming have nothing to do with anthropogenic global warming. Awesome argument lori

Sorry - forgot I have to inject novacaine into my temporals to debate on your level.

The planet is warming - that debate is over. Far from being an exact science, I have always said that the effects of this are exceedingly unpredictable, which, to me, is what makes them more of a concern. We don't really know if there is a "tipping point" out there. We are already seeing some of the effects of global warming, and they are not something that you would file under the category of "pleasant."

Do you deny that?

Regardless, the fact that one climate model may be more severe than another, or that they are inexact in general, has absolutely nothing to do with AGW.

You do know what AGW is, right?
 
Sorry - forgot I have to inject novacaine into my temporals to debate on your level.

The planet is warming - that debate is over. Far from being an exact science, I have always said that the effects of this are exceedingly unpredictable, which, to me, is what makes them more of a concern. We don't really know if there is a "tipping point" out there. We are already seeing some of the effects of global warming, and they are not something that you would file under the category of "pleasant."

Do you deny that?

Regardless, the fact that one climate model may be more severe than another, or that they are inexact in general, has absolutely nothing to do with AGW.

You do know what AGW is, right?

WTF? Does the IPCC use these models to make predictions? Are these models not the basis for fearmongering climate alarmists are pushing? You're a joke, lorax. Nice response BTW.

Ummm I don't think these models have anything to do with AGW. Duhhhh
 
natural climate change is not anthropogenic climate change

Gooood....that's a very good start, stirfry. 4 stars for you.

But the climate is changing, right? Either man is contributing, or he's not. Most of the authors of that ice core study you used to like to post - before I exposed you on it - believed in AGW.

There are a myriad of climate models out there; how could anyone ever claim that it is an "exact science?" No one I know ever has. Regardless, once again, it has absolutely nothing to do with AGW.
 
The problem is as scientists begin to look at these models and see that they don't really prove anything and they can't possibly provide any evidence of what if any affect we are having on the climate. For the end of the worlders it has become THEIR Inconvienent Truth.

Yeah we used to have no proof that polluting our water caused any problems.
After all as Dano said "A little Mercury never hurt anyone".
Same tune, different catastrophe looming.
 
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