Commentary: Enough is Enough

Truth Detector

Truth Detector

Well-known member
Contributor
(copied from a web page)

First we were told that we should approve the lotto because that money would be used to fix our public education system and improve our roads.

Then we were told that we should vote to raise sales taxes because we needed that money for education and to fix our roads.

Then we were told that we should okay casino gambling because the money raised from that would be used to fix our education system and of course, to improve the roads.

And then they raised the tax on gasoline and the fees on vehicle registration to improve our roads.

Then we legalized marijuana for obvious reasons and we were told that the revenue raised by taxing marijuana sales would be used to improve our public education system.

And now, after all that our public education system is one of the worst in the world and our students consistently score in the bottom half in math and science, they tell us that our roads and bridges are crumbling and our dams and other public projects are in danger of failing, they tell us we need 3.5 trillion dollars, $3,500,000,000,000 to fix our infrastructure.

My only question is, what happened to all that other money??? Wake Up America It's time to stop being sheep.
 
Jack said:
What is your Plan, Old Wise One?
Click to expand...

Do you believe Government has a "revenue" problem, or a "spending" problem?

My plan is what had worked so well in the past. Reduce the Federal Government back to where it is defined in the Constitution. Repeal the IRS tax code and supplant it with the Fair Tax.

Watch the economy BOOM and wealth explode for everyone. Is that too complex for you?
 
Truth Detector said:
Do you believe Government has a "revenue" problem, or a "spending" problem?

My plan is what had worked so well in the past. Reduce the Federal Government back to where it is defined in the Constitution. Repeal the IRS tax code and supplant it with the Fair Tax.

Watch the economy BOOM and wealth explode for everyone. Is that too complex for you?
Click to expand...


Aren't YOU the one that wants to put a Tariff on everything?
 
Jack said:
Aren't YOU the one that wants to put a Tariff on everything?
Click to expand...

No JackOFF; that is a strawman entirely of your own fabrication. You're a prime example of why one should never try arguing with idiots.

Care to answer my question and respond to my answer? :palm:
 
the problem with education has zero to do with money invested

the #1 problem is that too many kids have shitty parents. no money fixes this. the opposite - we have generations of welfare babies - who's entire purpose for bring born was so parents can get assistance
 
Truth Detector said:
(

My only question is, what happened to all that other money??? Wake Up America It's time to stop being sheep.
Click to expand...

All that money went to pay for the tax cut for corporations, billionaires and multi millionaires. But since that tax cut cost more than we had collected we had to borrow more money to pay for those tax cuts. So now we will have to raise money to pay for all those things that should have been paid for but instead went to corporations and the super rich.

In 1940, only about 5% of wealthiest Americans paid personal income tax.
In 1976 corporate income tax was over 22% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up about 44%.
By 1986 after the Reagan tax cuts corporate income tax made up only 8.2% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up 45%
By 2019 after the Bush and Trump tax cuts corporate income tax made up only 6.6% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up 49.5%
At the same time, the burden on the middle class through SS taxes went from 30% of the Federal budget in 1976 to 37% in 1986 and still at 36% in 2019 even with all the retired Boomers.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BUDGET-2021-TAB/pdf/BUDGET-2021-TAB.pdf - table 2.1

So we greatly reduced the taxes on corporations and the rich who are the majority owners while increasing the taxes on the middle class and then when we couldn't meet our requirements we simply borrowed more money. You asked what happened to all that money. It's right there in the numbers. It went to the rich in tax cuts. Now the bill is coming due and you want to whine about it. Maybe if you had been paying attention we wouldn't be in this position.
 
Poor Richard Saunders said:
All that money went to pay for the tax cut for corporations, billionaires and multi millionaires. But since that tax cut cost more than we had collected we had to borrow more money to pay for those tax cuts. So now we will have to raise money to pay for all those things that should have been paid for but instead went to corporations and the super rich.

In 1940, only about 5% of wealthiest Americans paid personal income tax.
In 1976 corporate income tax was over 22% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up about 44%.
By 1986 after the Reagan tax cuts corporate income tax made up only 8.2% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up 45%
By 2019 after the Bush and Trump tax cuts corporate income tax made up only 6.6% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up 49.5%
At the same time, the burden on the middle class through SS taxes went from 30% of the Federal budget in 1976 to 37% in 1986 and still at 36% in 2019 even with all the retired Boomers.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BUDGET-2021-TAB/pdf/BUDGET-2021-TAB.pdf - table 2.1

So we greatly reduced the taxes on corporations and the rich who are the majority owners while increasing the taxes on the middle class and then when we couldn't meet our requirements we simply borrowed more money. You asked what happened to all that money. It's right there in the numbers. It went to the rich in tax cuts. Now the bill is coming due and you want to whine about it. Maybe if you had been paying attention we wouldn't be in this position.
Click to expand...

The information on corporate taxes is misleading based on changing tax structure:

"Today, most business income is taxed through the individual income tax code, rather than the corporate code. This concerns a distinction only a CPA could love. One type of corporation, a "C-corporation," pays corporate income taxes on its profits. Another type, the "S-corporation," pays taxes on its profits through the individual income-tax returns of the owner.

"Changes in tax rates and rules for C- and S-corps contributed to more firms becoming S-corps and thus paying individual rather than corporate income tax," said Kyle Pomerleau, an economist with the Tax Foundation. That has boosted individual income-tax collections and reduced corporate income-tax collections.

Between 1980 to 2010, the category of businesses that includes S-corporations, sole proprietorships, partnerships and LLCs has increased by 10.9 million to over 30 million, while the number of corporations has declined, Pomerlau said.

This means there are fewer corporations to pay the corporate income tax. In addition, the amount of business income generated by these types of businesses has risen as well, Pomerlau said. Between 1980 and 2010, this type of income has increased fivefold, from $320 billion to more than $1.6 trillion, he said.

"In fact, most recent data shows that (these) businesses are earning more total net income than traditional C-corporations," Pomerlau said. "In 1980, it was the complete opposite."

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...-sanders-says-tax-share-paid-corporations-ha/
 
Flash said:
The information on corporate taxes is misleading based on changing tax structure:

"Today, most business income is taxed through the individual income tax code, rather than the corporate code. This concerns a distinction only a CPA could love. One type of corporation, a "C-corporation," pays corporate income taxes on its profits. Another type, the "S-corporation," pays taxes on its profits through the individual income-tax returns of the owner.

"Changes in tax rates and rules for C- and S-corps contributed to more firms becoming S-corps and thus paying individual rather than corporate income tax," said Kyle Pomerleau, an economist with the Tax Foundation. That has boosted individual income-tax collections and reduced corporate income-tax collections.

Between 1980 to 2010, the category of businesses that includes S-corporations, sole proprietorships, partnerships and LLCs has increased by 10.9 million to over 30 million, while the number of corporations has declined, Pomerlau said.

This means there are fewer corporations to pay the corporate income tax. In addition, the amount of business income generated by these types of businesses has risen as well, Pomerlau said. Between 1980 and 2010, this type of income has increased fivefold, from $320 billion to more than $1.6 trillion, he said.

"In fact, most recent data shows that (these) businesses are earning more total net income than traditional C-corporations," Pomerlau said. "In 1980, it was the complete opposite."

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...-sanders-says-tax-share-paid-corporations-ha/
Click to expand...
Congratulations on proving Bernie Sanders statement was mostly true. Does that prove my post was mostly true or does it not really have any bearing on my post?

Since I didn't use 1952 or 2013 much of the fact check has no bearing on my statement. While it is possible that the change in corporate structure may be responsible for some of the changes it would be helpful if you provided actual numbers from the years I used to prove the point. If the change in corporate structure was completely responsible then we should have seen something showing that in the 1976-1986 numbers in that the personal income taxes should have had an increase inverse to how the corporate income taxes decreased. And yet we didn't' see that. We saw a drastic drop in corporate tax collections as a percentage of the whole while personal income taxes remained about the same percentage. For the tax to have simply moved from corporate to personal we should have seen a much larger increase in personal income tax revenues.

The reality is that the changes in the tax laws in the 1980s reduced taxes on corporations and reduced taxes on individuals while increase FICA taxes which are not paid on the majority of the income for high earners as there is a cap after which it is no longer collected. Clearly the taxes were reduced on high income earners while the tax on low and middle income earners was increased by shifting the burden from corporate income taxes to FICA taxes. While one could argue that corporations pay 50% of FICA it still means that the other 50% fell on workers. So essentially, much of the tax burden was shifted from corporations and high income people to the middle and low income earners.
 
Poor Richard Saunders said:
Congratulations on proving Bernie Sanders statement was mostly true. Does that prove my post was mostly true or does it not really have any bearing on my post?

Since I didn't use 1952 or 2013 much of the fact check has no bearing on my statement. While it is possible that the change in corporate structure may be responsible for some of the changes it would be helpful if you provided actual numbers from the years I used to prove the point. If the change in corporate structure was completely responsible then we should have seen something showing that in the 1976-1986 numbers in that the personal income taxes should have had an increase inverse to how the corporate income taxes decreased. And yet we didn't' see that. We saw a drastic drop in corporate tax collections as a percentage of the whole while personal income taxes remained about the same percentage. For the tax to have simply moved from corporate to personal we should have seen a much larger increase in personal income tax revenues.

The reality is that the changes in the tax laws in the 1980s reduced taxes on corporations and reduced taxes on individuals while increase FICA taxes which are not paid on the majority of the income for high earners as there is a cap after which it is no longer collected. Clearly the taxes were reduced on high income earners while the tax on low and middle income earners was increased by shifting the burden from corporate income taxes to FICA taxes. While one could argue that corporations pay 50% of FICA it still means that the other 50% fell on workers. So essentially, much of the tax burden was shifted from corporations and high income people to the middle and low income earners.
Click to expand...

The point was that most corporate taxes are now paid by S Corporations as individual income. So, claiming corporations now pay a lower percent of federal income taxes is misleading when most revenue and taxes do not appear as corporate income taxes.
 
Poor Richard Saunders said:
All that money went to pay for the tax cut for corporations, billionaires and multi millionaires. But since that tax cut cost more than we had collected we had to borrow more money to pay for those tax cuts. So now we will have to raise money to pay for all those things that should have been paid for but instead went to corporations and the super rich.

In 1940, only about 5% of wealthiest Americans paid personal income tax.
In 1976 corporate income tax was over 22% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up about 44%.
By 1986 after the Reagan tax cuts corporate income tax made up only 8.2% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up 45%
By 2019 after the Bush and Trump tax cuts corporate income tax made up only 6.6% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up 49.5%
At the same time, the burden on the middle class through SS taxes went from 30% of the Federal budget in 1976 to 37% in 1986 and still at 36% in 2019 even with all the retired Boomers.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BUDGET-2021-TAB/pdf/BUDGET-2021-TAB.pdf - table 2.1

So we greatly reduced the taxes on corporations and the rich who are the majority owners while increasing the taxes on the middle class and then when we couldn't meet our requirements we simply borrowed more money. You asked what happened to all that money. It's right there in the numbers. It went to the rich in tax cuts. Now the bill is coming due and you want to whine about it. Maybe if you had been paying attention we wouldn't be in this position.
Click to expand...

Percentage of revenue is not the percentage of the tax, dude.
 
Flash said:
The point was that most corporate taxes are now paid by S Corporations as individual income. So, claiming corporations now pay a lower percent of federal income taxes is misleading when most revenue and taxes do not appear as corporate income taxes.
Click to expand...

So do you have actual numbers from 1976 and 1986 to support this claim?
How do you account for the fact that the personal income tax didn't increase by the same amount that the corporate taxes decreased if the tax dollars simply moved from one column to the other?
 
Poor Richard Saunders said:
So do you have actual numbers from 1976 and 1986 to support this claim?
How do you account for the fact that the personal income tax didn't increase by the same amount that the corporate taxes decreased if the tax dollars simply moved from one column to the other?
Click to expand...

I will have to look at the numbers, but the trend began later than 1976-1986.

Growth in S-Corporations
 During the 1990s, a trend began toward companies organizing as S corporations rather than traditional C corporations. Because the income of S corporations is taxed through the individual income tax rather than the corporate tax, this resulted in a sharp increase in the amount of business income that was channeled into the individual income tax system. (Please see related “Fiscal Fact” at http://www.taxfoundation.org/legacy/show/1477.html.)


Considering the rapid growth of S corporations since the individual income tax cuts in 2003, the dramatic growth of corporate tax collections from traditional C corporations in the past two years is remarkable. These surging collections place U.S. lawmakers in a unique position to compete with the corporate tax rate reductions recently enacted by many of the U.S.’s major trading partners in the OECD. (Please see related “Fiscal Fact” at http://www.taxfoundation.org/legacy/show/1466.html.)

https://taxfoundation.org/surge-corporate-income-tax-collections-offers-opportunity-tax-reform/

New CBO Report Shows Declining Share of C Corporations

https://taxfoundation.org/new-cbo-report-shows-declining-share-c-corporations/

Corporate Tax Revenue Hit an All-Time High in 2021

https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-tax-collections-2021/
 
The numbers can be found here:

All tables in PDF form here
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BUDGET-2021-TAB/pdf/BUDGET-2021-TAB.pdf



Or individual tables can be found here in xls form.
https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/BUDGET-2021-TAB/context

Table 2.3 shows receipts as % of GDP.
Prior to 1980, the combined Corporate and Personal income taxes were rarely below 10% of GDP and often in the 11-12% range.
After 1982 we rarely see the combined income taxes above 10% until the boom in the late 90's which is then reduced to under 10% by the 2001 recession and the Bush tax cut.


Table 2.2 shows the % of receipts for each category.
The % of the revenues coming from personal income taxes seems to be in a fairly narrow range with a few breakout years in the 90s and then again in the last 2 years.
Once again, the drop in revenue from corporate income taxes is not completely made up for by an increase in personal income taxes. Instead it is made up in large part by increases in FICA revenues.
 
zymurgy said:
the problem with education has zero to do with money invested

the #1 problem is that too many kids have shitty parents. no money fixes this. the opposite - we have generations of welfare babies - who's entire purpose for bring born was so parents can get assistance
Click to expand...

....and the constant lowering of standards by our leftist controlled educational establishment. ;)
 
Poor Richard Saunders said:
All that money went to pay for the tax cut for corporations, billionaires and multi millionaires.
Click to expand...

FIRST; corporations don't pay taxes. YOU, the consumer of their goods and services pay them. If you had an education you would know this.

Second; billionaires and millionaires pay the lions share of taxes in this country. Suggestions that they don't pay taxes comes from either liars, or low IQ morons. Which one are you?

Poor Richard Saunders said:
But since that tax cut cost more than we had collected we had to borrow more money to pay for those tax cuts. So now we will have to raise money to pay for all those things that should have been paid for but instead went to corporations and the super rich.
Click to expand...

Tax cuts did not reduce the Governments revenue. That's a basic fact. Claiming that we have a revenue problem is false and can only be made by the uneducated, uninformed or low IQ dullards. Which one is you?

Poor Richard Saunders said:
In 1940, only about 5% of wealthiest Americans paid personal income tax.
Click to expand...

They still do. :palm:

FBIP-SOCIAL-04.jpg


Poor Richard Saunders said:
In 1976 corporate income tax was over 22% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up about 44%.
By 1986 after the Reagan tax cuts corporate income tax made up only 8.2% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up 45%
By 2019 after the Bush and Trump tax cuts corporate income tax made up only 6.6% of Federal revenues while personal income taxes made up 49.5%
At the same time, the burden on the middle class through SS taxes went from 30% of the Federal budget in 1976 to 37% in 1986 and still at 36% in 2019 even with all the retired Boomers.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BUDGET-2021-TAB/pdf/BUDGET-2021-TAB.pdf - table 2.1

So we greatly reduced the taxes on corporations and the rich who are the majority owners while increasing the taxes on the middle class and then when we couldn't meet our requirements we simply borrowed more money. You asked what happened to all that money. It's right there in the numbers. It went to the rich in tax cuts. Now the bill is coming due and you want to whine about it. Maybe if you had been paying attention we wouldn't be in this position.
Click to expand...

Once again for the low information retards who parrot the lame dumb talking points of the DNC; corporations don't pay taxes. They COLLECT them. YOU, the consumer, pay those taxes when you consume their goods and services dumbass. :palm:
 
Poor Richard Saunders said:
Congratulations on proving Bernie Sanders statement was mostly true. Does that prove my post was mostly true or does it not really have any bearing on my post?

Since I didn't use 1952 or 2013 much of the fact check has no bearing on my statement. While it is possible that the change in corporate structure may be responsible for some of the changes it would be helpful if you provided actual numbers from the years I used to prove the point. If the change in corporate structure was completely responsible then we should have seen something showing that in the 1976-1986 numbers in that the personal income taxes should have had an increase inverse to how the corporate income taxes decreased. And yet we didn't' see that. We saw a drastic drop in corporate tax collections as a percentage of the whole while personal income taxes remained about the same percentage. For the tax to have simply moved from corporate to personal we should have seen a much larger increase in personal income tax revenues.

The reality is that the changes in the tax laws in the 1980s reduced taxes on corporations and reduced taxes on individuals while increase FICA taxes which are not paid on the majority of the income for high earners as there is a cap after which it is no longer collected. Clearly the taxes were reduced on high income earners while the tax on low and middle income earners was increased by shifting the burden from corporate income taxes to FICA taxes. While one could argue that corporations pay 50% of FICA it still means that the other 50% fell on workers. So essentially, much of the tax burden was shifted from corporations and high income people to the middle and low income earners.
Click to expand...

No wonder you're a clueless tard; you listen to Bernie Sanders. The dumbest Marxist moron in Government. :palm:
 
Poor Richard Saunders said:
The numbers can be found here:

All tables in PDF form here
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BUDGET-2021-TAB/pdf/BUDGET-2021-TAB.pdf



Or individual tables can be found here in xls form.
https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/BUDGET-2021-TAB/context

Table 2.3 shows receipts as % of GDP.
Prior to 1980, the combined Corporate and Personal income taxes were rarely below 10% of GDP and often in the 11-12% range.
After 1982 we rarely see the combined income taxes above 10% until the boom in the late 90's which is then reduced to under 10% by the 2001 recession and the Bush tax cut.


Table 2.2 shows the % of receipts for each category.
The % of the revenues coming from personal income taxes seems to be in a fairly narrow range with a few breakout years in the 90s and then again in the last 2 years.
Once again, the drop in revenue from corporate income taxes is not completely made up for by an increase in personal income taxes. Instead it is made up in large part by increases in FICA revenues.
Click to expand...

Can you show me on those tables where Government revenue was in decline as a result of the tax reductions? :palm:
 
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