Drone War Expansion Sparks Questions About Effectiveness, Oversight

blackascoal

The Force is With Me
WASHINGTON -- Without warning in the dead of night of Jan. 3, on a dirt road in a remote region of Pakistan, two missiles slammed into a double-cab pickup truck and blew it to smithereens along with the six men inside. It's safe to say the victims never heard the U.S. drone circling far overhead.

One of the dead was a known bad guy, Mullah Nazir, a Taliban warlord who boasted of his ties with al Qaeda and recently banned polio vaccinations for local children. The other men killed were said to be lower-ranking Taliban commanders.

A clean kill, demonstrating the increasing ability of the United States to identify, track, target and eliminate dangerous threats to American security? Perhaps. A majority of Americans think so -- by 59 to 18, Americans approve of using drones to kill high-level terrorist suspects overseas, according to a new HuffPost/YouGov poll. But a growing number of military and civilian experts in war and law say that President Barack Obama's drone war is counterproductive and unsustainable, perhaps violating the Constitution as well.

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"Our criteria for using [drones] is very tight and very strict," Obama insisted in August. In an interview with CNN, Obama explained that any proposed strike has to comply with U.S. and international law, and the target must be a real threat who cannot be captured.

"And we have got to make sure that in whatever operations we conduct we are very careful about avoiding civilian casualties. And, in fact," the president said, "there are a whole bunch of situations where we will not engage in operations if we think there's gonna be civilian casualties involved."

On the morning of March 17, 2011, more than three dozen village elders and local government leaders gathered in an open-air bus depot in the town of Datta Khel, in North Waziristan, Pakistan. Under discussion: how to avoid being drawn into the insurgency raging there and across the border in Afghanistan. At about 10:45 a.m., a drone hovering overhead fired a supersonic missile into the gathering. One man remembers hearing a slight hissing noise before the blast threw him, unconscious, several yards away. An immediate second strike killed many of the wounded.

What happened in Datta Khel has been exhaustively documented, at some risk, in on-site investigations by The New York Times, the Associated Press, The Guardian, and the independent Bureau of Investigative Reporting, among other organizations. The results were verified and compiled in a report by law-school researchers from Stanford and New York universities.

U.S. officials insisted that all those killed were insurgents. But interviews with survivors and families of the dead, along with other eyewitnesses and medical authorities indicated that most if not all of the roughly 40 people killed were civilians. The Associated Press investigation concluded that four of the dead may have been affiliated with the Taliban.

That June, three months after the Datta Khel attack, Brennan boasted that in the drone attacks, "there hasn't been a single collateral death because of the exceptional proficiency, precision of the capabilities we've been able to develop."

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Obama has ducked questions about whether or not he personally reviews each strike package.

The legal basis for drone strikes is said to reside in a June 2010 memo from the White House Office of Legal Counsel used to justify killing Anwar al-Awlaki, a U.S. citizen and extremist firebrand, in Yemen in September 2011. That memo remains secret after New York District Court Judge Colleen McMahon ruled in frustration on Jan. 2 that the law shields those White House decisions. That effectively allows "the executive branch of our government to proclaim as perfectly lawful certain actions that seem on their face incompatible with our Constitution and laws, while keeping the reasons for its conclusions a secret," she wrote.

Nor is there much congressional oversight of the drone strikes. After being blocked for years, the Senate Intelligence Committee finally won permission in 2009 to send a delegation to the CIA once a month to peek at strike videos and scan some of the intelligence justifying the strikes, a committee official confirmed. But congressional committees charged with oversight of the armed services and foreign relations have never managed to hold even closed-door classified briefings on the drone strikes.

"Assertions by Obama administration officials as well as by scholars, that these operations comply with international standards are undermined by the total absence of any forms of credible transparency or verifiable accountability," concludes Philip Alston, NYU professor of law and the former United Nations adviser on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions.

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Counting the number of civilians killed in these strikes is notoriously difficult, given that strikes usually take place in remote areas that are often hostile to Westerners. The most careful accounting is generally considered to be that by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, which said between 558 and 1,119 civilians have been killed in strikes in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia.

In any attack, Gross told The Huffington Post, "there's a real science involved with what type of weapon system will be dropped and the numbers of people you would expect in that culture at that time of day." The art, he said, is judging whether the military benefit of a strike outweighs the projected loss of civilian life, as required by international law.

The recent use of "signature strikes" or "crowd killings," which are said to target a group of unnamed and unidentified suspects, appears to violate international law even more egregiously.

There is also the issue of blowback. It doesn't take a detailed military analysis to recognize that having drones constantly overhead promising instant death isn't popular in non-battlefield strike zones like Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. Evidence gathered by reporters and investigators in North Waziristan and other sites of drone strikes is that the anger, fear and resentment the strikes leave behind among civilians seems to outweigh any potential military benefit. Such devastating strikes, which kill with no warning, "are hated on a visceral level," retired general and Afghan war commander Stanley McChrystal said recently. "The resentment created by American use of unmanned strikes," he added, "is much greater than the average American appreciates."

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Two other problems arise with the drone program. One is copycats. Inevitably, weapons technology spreads, and already other countries are racing to expand their drone fleets and arm them with weapons. It's also likely that some will not be as fussy as the U.S. government said it is in following international law. Iran has already used surveillance drones. Imagine the havoc if it threatened to launch clouds of armed drones toward the Persian Gulf oilfields.

For that reason, experts have urged the administration to work closely to control the export of drone technology, as the United States and others have done with nuclear weapons technology.

The other issue is whether or not drone killings really advance the so-called war on terror. The use of secretive drone strikes is justified as a way to "surgically" (to use Brennan's description) remove senior terrorist leaders intent on attacking the United States. The Jan. 3 strike which killed Mullah Nazir, for instance, ostensibly removed a senior battlefield commander.

But, according to the Long Wars Journal, Nazir was replaced within a day by Bahwal Khan, his top aide for the past 16 years, an Afghan fighter closely allied with al Qaeda and other terrorist groups in the region. As a result, "little will change," a U.S. intelligence official told the Journal. "It will be business as usual, we'll continue to have to take shots at al Qaeda leaders and others" in the area, the official said.

Given all these difficulties, said Zenko, "the trajectory of U.S. drone strike policies is unsustainable." On the military side, a global arms race to acquire and deploy armed drones could erode the U.S. freedom of action and threaten American friends and allies.

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/16/drone-war-obama_n_2454901.html
 
For the record, last I checked 'precision' bombing meant that 50% or greater of bombs dropped fell within 50 meters of the intended target. So they were never as precise as some people like to make them out as.
 
The fact that Feinstein and others are trying to now pretend that the 'collateral damage' from all these drone strikes is in the single digits is absurd.

The fact that Chris Matthews is pounding his fist and screaming like a lunatic that Obama has no choice shows just how pathetic he is. Had that been Bush, Matthews would have been foaming at the mouth screaming how immoral/unethical/illegal it was. shouting how Bush should be tried as a war criminal.

At least Robinson and Corn express some 'problems' with the Obama policy of 'trust us, our kill list was vetted by us, we know what they are thinking and thus we are able to kill them'
 
Regarding that poll, the way these questions are asked is messed up.

"Do you approve of using drones to kill high-level terrorist suspects overseas" is a very hard question to answer no to. I know that a significant number of Americans would support this no matter way, but I think those numbers would change a lot if the question were asked differently and in a manner that more closely reflects what is going on.
 
For the record, last I checked 'precision' bombing meant that 50% or greater of bombs dropped fell within 50 meters of the intended target. So they were never as precise as some people like to make them out as.

Some people like Superfreak. I wonder Superfreak if you remember our argument when I told you that air strikes are always immoral and you assured me that we used precision bombers and your (cousin??) relative was in the air force and you and he were both laughing your asses off at my "ignorance" right now??? I remember it.
 
(1) Regarding civilian casuties, fighting age males are automatically excluded from those considered civilians. Think about that when you read the nonsensical claims.

(2) The 2001 AUMF needs to be repealed. It's the enabling mechanism for all this evil shit.


Oh, and SF citing favorably to Glenn Greenwald and Mother Jones has my mind officially blown.
 
(1) Regarding civilian casuties, fighting age males are automatically excluded from those considered civilians. Think about that when you read the nonsensical claims.

(2) The 2001 AUMF needs to be repealed. It's the enabling mechanism for all this evil shit.


Oh, and SF citing favorably to Glenn Greenwald and Mother Jones has my mind officially blown.

What a wrong with Glenn greenwald?
 
More Diplomacy, Fewer Drones

Drone-striking militants to eradicate terrorism is like machine-gunning mosquitoes to cure malaria. Rather than tackling the real drivers of extremism, drone strikes create an ideal environment for Al Qaeda to grow and propagate.

Winning the hearts and minds of people is key in such unconventional warfare, yet the U.S. alienates Yemeni civilians, many of whom have lost relatives or friends in drone strikes.

Strikes in areas where government barely exists and no services are provided to citizens simply spells disaster. There is also devastating damage to an already fragile economy. Forty percent of Yemen's 23 million people live on less than $2 a day and 10 million people don't have enough food to eat. Unemployed youth living in desperate economic conditions in conflict areas often join militants. They have reached a point where seeking death becomes easier than struggling for life.

There could be short-term military gains from killing militant leaders in these strikes, but they are minuscule compared with the long-term damage caused by drones. The notion of targeting Al Qaeda’s leaders to demolish its organizational structure has been proven ineffective; new leaders spontaneously emerge in furious retaliation to the attacks.

This is why Al Qaeda in Yemen today is much stronger than it was a few years ago. Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula had just a few hundred members in 2009, and controlled no territory. Today it has, along with Ansar al-Sharia, at least a thousand members and substantial operational spaces in Abyan and Shabwa, in addition to a presence in Mareb, Rada, Hadramout and other regions of Yemen.

Overlooking the real drivers of extremism and focusing solely on tackling security symptoms with brutal force is as ineffective as curing blood cancer with invasive surgery: not only ineffective but also counterproductive. The repercussions of drone attacks in Yemen could spill across borders, inspiring homegrown terrorism in other countries.


Only a long-term approach based on building relations with local communities, dealing with the economic and social drivers of extremism, and cooperating with tribes and Yemen’s army will eradicate the threat of Al Qaeda.

The drone program is by nature a Sisyphean struggle, no matter how many terrorists are eliminated. In Yemen, every time a drone kills civilians, young Yemenis like me who have always admired America start to see it as part of the problem, not the solution.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...ore-harm-than-good/more-diplomacy-less-drones
 
♪┏(・o・)┛♪┗ (・o・ ) ┓♪;1165999 said:
i'm kinda scared that like 90% of people on jpp are agreeing on something.

Even blind squirrels can find acorns. Of course we're not blind squirrels (as in you and I Grind), but most others here....
 
It's pretty simple, it's hard to defend blindly firing missiles at anybody and then claiming whoever gets hit deserves it. Republicans will attack it because it's insane, and Obama's policy, Democrats(some of them) will attack it because it's freaking insane and they can blame the military industrial complex.
 
Some people like Superfreak. I wonder Superfreak if you remember our argument when I told you that air strikes are always immoral and you assured me that we used precision bombers and your (cousin??) relative was in the air force and you and he were both laughing your asses off at my "ignorance" right now??? I remember it.

1) Air strikes are not always immoral. The use of the absolute is what was mocked.
2) I believe that was a thread where you and others were harping on the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's killed despite the Iraqi government not having figures anywhere close to your exaggerations.
3) But do pull up the thread you are referring to, be happy to go over your delusions again. Maybe this time it will help you.
 
Nothing. I was reading him back when SF was defending the Bush Administration's illegal wiretapping program.

amazing how individuals on the left want to turn this into a 'SF said 'such and so' 8 years ago' while failing to comment on what their pressure master has been doing in the present.

That said, bump the thread on illegal wire tapping... lets see what was actually said.
 
♪┏(・o・)┛♪┗ (・o・ ) ┓♪;1165999 said:
i'm kinda scared that like 90% of people on jpp are agreeing on something.

I would be willing to bet that 90% of us also agree that country music sucks ass... just sayin...
 
1) Air strikes are not always immoral. The use of the absolute is what was mocked.
2) I believe that was a thread where you and others were harping on the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's killed despite the Iraqi government not having figures anywhere close to your exaggerations.
3) But do pull up the thread you are referring to, be happy to go over your delusions again. Maybe this time it will help you.

You're so FOS. It was years ago while Bush was President and you had never met an airstrike you didn't lovveeeeee. YOu were making the exact same argument Billy mentioned - that our bombers are now so "precise" that there is barely any collateral damage. And I said I had seen too much to ever support airstrikes (because I had watched some very painful documentaries), and you said you and your big bad air force cous were laughing your asses off at me because I was ignorant.

The fact is that you are exactly what you are claiming liberals are. A hack who supports all of this shit...just as long as a Repubilcan is doing it.

I know it. You know it. No one believes for one second you'll ever admit it. But others know it too.
 
You're so FOS. It was years ago while Bush was President and you had never met an airstrike you didn't lovveeeeee. YOu were making the exact same argument Billy mentioned - that our bombers are now so "precise" that there is barely any collateral damage. And I said I had seen too much to ever support airstrikes (because I had watched some very painful documentaries), and you said you and your big bad air force cous were laughing your asses off at me because I was ignorant.

The fact is that you are exactly what you are claiming liberals are. A hack who supports all of this shit...just as long as a Repubilcan is doing it.

I know it. You know it. No one believes for one second you'll ever admit it. But others know it too.

Again, pull up the thread Darla...
 
Again, pull up the thread Darla...

Yeah, I'm gonna find a particular thread from six years ago. You're safe.

But I know. And you know. And I think others do too.

And, didn't you in your usual spoiled brat unrestrained anger type of way, actually PM me that shit about you and your cousin laughing at me? Anyway, bottom line? You loveeeeee airstrikes and drone strikes as long as a Republican is doing them. You will support them again as soon as a Republican takes office. YOu'll then say "it's different because (insert whatever excuse townhall has come up with)"

And then you'll tell me to pull up this thread. From what will then be five years ago. I wonder who you think you're kidding? I even wonder if you pull off kidding yourself.
 
Melissa Harris-Perry: Obama Administration Has Institutionalized 'Perpetual War' (VIDEO)

Melissa Harris-Perry was alarmed over President Obama's drone policy on Saturday, lamenting the country's "perpetual war state" and alleging that Obama has expanded some of policies put in place by George W. Bush.

The MSNBC host was reacting to a controversial Justice Department white paper, which says that the U.S. can legally order the killing of Americans if they are suspected of being senior Al Qaeda members. Harris-Perry noted that while on-the-ground fighting in Iraq has largely ended, she said that there are still special forces units and drone strikes being carried out in war zones — a development she said indicated the country's never-ending state of war.

"The perpetual war state ignited in response to the September 11th attacks has become an institutional apparatus that needs no particular provocation," Harris-Perry said, adding that kill lists and "imminent threat" have become "entrenched protocols" since 2001. "Counterterrorism policies put into place under President George Bush have been continued and robustly expanded under President Obama," she alleged.

Harris-Perry alleged that despite Obama's calls for the contrary, his administration has largely institutionalized "perpetual war."

"While we can be pretty sure that a mere territorial dispute will not lead our troops back into the trenches, the expansion of what counts as a justification for preemptive strike — we are left asking, what will get us out of war?" she said.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/10/melissa-harris-perry-drones-obama_n_2657457.html
 
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