Healthcare was not called a "market failure" until government entered the market

TheDanold

TheDanold

Unimatrix
Healthcare was not called a "market failure" until government entered the market

I often hear some leftwingers say how the healthcare system is failing and the need for government to take over and make people dependent on them for healthcare because private sector healthcare is a "market failure" and is "not working".

Yet from looking at my archives of the political issues of the day in the 1950's and before (when government had NO involvement in healthcare) or speaking to seniors or studies on issues then, there is simply NO references to healthcare being a market failure or even saying it was failing.
It was only after government crept in with Medicare/Medicaid, HMO Act, Patients Rights Act and far more onerous regulations and ease of lawsuits that it all of a sudden started being called a "market failure".

So basically the further it moved away from being a free market, the more it became a "market failure".
 
TheDanold said:
I often hear some leftwingers say how the healthcare system is failing and the need for government to take over and make people dependent on them for healthcare because private sector healthcare is a "market failure" and is "not working".

Yet from looking at my archives of the political issues of the day in the 1950's and before (when government had NO involvement in healthcare) or speaking to seniors or studies on issues then, there is simply NO references to healthcare being a market failure or even saying it was failing.
It was only after government crept in with Medicare/Medicaid, HMO Act, Patients Rights Act and far more onerous regulations and ease of lawsuits that it all of a sudden started being called a "market failure".

So basically the further it moved away from being a free market, the more it became a "market failure".
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I assume you are referring to me and my mention of market failure every time you trumpet your ignorant "free market" clarion. Let me clear up an obvious misunderstanding.

First, I have not said that "private sector healthcare is a market failure." In fact, that doesn't make any sense at all. You clearly don't know what a market failure is. Please do us all a favor and look it up. I'm sure there are plenty of resources available on the web addressing the subject.

Second, the healthcare market does suffer from some types of market failure (asymmetric information for starters) but that is not the largest problem with healthcare and health insurance in the United States. The big problem is with health insurance and how they make a profit. They make a profit by providing insurance to people that don't need healthcare and by not providing insurance to people that do need healthcare. That's the problem. The people that need insurance can't get it. It's not a market failure. It's just the amoral workings of the free market with insurers pursuing their own rational self-interest producing terrible results.
 
Dungheap said:
I assume you are referring to me and my mention of market failure every time you trumpet your ignorant "free market" clarion. Let me clear up an obvious misunderstanding.

First, I have not said that "private sector healthcare is a market failure." In fact, that doesn't make any sense at all. You clearly don't know what a market failure is. Please do us all a favor and look it up. I'm sure there are plenty of resources available on the web addressing the subject.

Second, the healthcare market does suffer from some types of market failure (asymmetric information for starters) but that is not the largest problem with healthcare and health insurance in the United States. The big problem is with health insurance and how they make a profit. They make a profit by providing insurance to people that don't need healthcare and by not providing insurance to people that do need healthcare. That's the problem. The people that need insurance can't get it. It's not a market failure. It's just the amoral workings of the free market with insurers pursuing their own rational self-interest producing terrible results.
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And when they do have insurance the insurance companies, unfairly deny claims. I fully support HEAVY regulation on denials and premium calculations.
 
Robdawg said:
hell yeah lady T... way to slap it to da man
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Its true though. they completely screw people over when its time to pay up. And that shouldn't be lawful. I think if someone can prove that an insurance company unfairly denied a claim and that their contract covered their expenses, the people should be awarded, the claim plus up to 20 times the claim amount. And lets scrap this idea of maximum payouts for "intangible" judgements (I can't think of the word but not the person's out of pocket expenses)
 
yes insurance companies need some regulation. they have proven to be unethical with the storm damage of the south.. to cancellation of policies if claims are made.. to not paying medical claims.

Its a business i worked in 2 different companies for 3 years and i can tell you they are WAY more unethical then financial industries in many many ways that i would probably be shot if i divulged. One reason i got out of that indsutry.
 
TheDanold said:
I often hear some leftwingers say how the healthcare system is failing and the need for government to take over and make people dependent on them for healthcare because private sector healthcare is a "market failure" and is "not working".

Yet from looking at my archives of the political issues of the day in the 1950's and before (when government had NO involvement in healthcare) or speaking to seniors or studies on issues then, there is simply NO references to healthcare being a market failure or even saying it was failing.
It was only after government crept in with Medicare/Medicaid, HMO Act, Patients Rights Act and far more onerous regulations and ease of lawsuits that it all of a sudden started being called a "market failure".

So basically the further it moved away from being a free market, the more it became a "market failure".
Click to expand...

*Yawn*
 
Dungheap said:
I assume you are referring to me and my mention of market failure every time you trumpet your ignorant "free market" clarion. Let me clear up an obvious misunderstanding.

First, I have not said that "private sector healthcare is a market failure." In fact, that doesn't make any sense at all. You clearly don't know what a market failure is. Please do us all a favor and look it up. I'm sure there are plenty of resources available on the web addressing the subject.
Click to expand...
I know what you think it is and I disagree that such a concept exists. The market is nothing more than a collection of individuals buying and selling goods and services, if you are to say that health is a market failure then you must show which individuals within it failed.
See Israel Kirzner's "Market Theory and the Price System".
"Efficiency for a social system means the efficiency with which it permits its individual members to achieve their individual goals"

It's like me calling "society" a failure, well society is nothing more than a collection of individuals - which of those individuals failed?

I don't deal in abstract economics, give specifics or give up.

Dungheap said:
Second, the healthcare market does suffer from some types of market failure (asymmetric information for starters) but that is not the largest problem with healthcare and health insurance in the United States. The big problem is with health insurance and how they make a profit. They make a profit by providing insurance to people that don't need healthcare and by not providing insurance to people that do need healthcare. That's the problem. The people that need insurance can't get it. It's not a market failure. It's just the amoral workings of the free market with insurers pursuing their own rational self-interest producing terrible results.
Click to expand...
That's like me saying you can't get life insurance when you are very old because you need it as you are getting very old.
Well you buy it when you don't need it, thinking that you WILL need it. That's the whole concept of insurance, buying in the POSSIBLE eventuality of something negative. If you don't want it, then don't buy it, but if something DOES go wrong, don't sit there and complain that there is a market failure because NOW no one will insure you.
 
TheDanold said:
I know what you think it is and I disagree that such a concept exists. The market is nothing more than a collection of individuals buying and selling goods and services, if you are to say that health is a market failure then you must show which individuals within it failed.
See Israel Kirzner's "Market Theory and the Price System".
"Efficiency for a social system means the efficiency with which it permits its individual members to achieve their individual goals"

It's like me calling "society" a failure, well society is nothing more than a collection of individuals - which of those individuals failed?

I don't deal in abstract economics, give specifics or give up.


That's like me saying you can't get life insurance when you are very old because you need it as you are getting very old.
Well you buy it when you don't need it, thinking that you WILL need it. That's the whole concept of insurance, buying in the POSSIBLE eventuality of something negative. If you don't want it, then don't buy it, but if something DOES go wrong, don't sit there and complain that there is a market failure because NOW no one will insure you.
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Not to be rude, but I hope you get very sick and lose your job.
 
LadyT said:
Its true though. they completely screw people over when its time to pay up. And that shouldn't be lawful. I think if someone can prove that an insurance company unfairly denied a claim and that their contract covered their expenses, the people should be awarded, the claim plus up to 20 times the claim amount. And lets scrap this idea of maximum payouts for "intangible" judgements (I can't think of the word but not the person's out of pocket expenses)
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I would support a bill that did the above. I would also suggest that there be no rewards given for the amount of claims denied.
 
Dungheap said:
Not to be rude, but I hope you get very sick and lose your job.
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Well I don't hope anything bad happens to your health, I guess that is just me the heartless Conservative talking though, unlike the caring Liberal you obviously are.
I'd make a comment about your job, but like many inexperienced college Liberals, you have yet to go out and make your way in life and experience the joys of taxes and forced government dependence.

I don't just preach individual responsibility, I live it. I have some savings, I have a side business and I have lived a respectful enough life that I have a few people close to me who could help if I really needed it as I would help them if they really needed it.

My grandfather worked very hard all his life and had the cool distinction of only ever working for himself. When he retired, which wasn't til much later because he loved working, he was able to comfortably get himself through his last few years living with Parkinsons.
He never depended on government and I hope to do the same.
 
TheDanold said:
Well I don't hope anything bad happens to your health, I guess that is just me the heartless Conservative talking though, unlike the caring Liberal you obviously are.
I'd make a comment about your job, but like many inexperienced college Liberals, you have yet to go out and make your way in life and experience the joys of taxes and forced government dependence.

I don't just preach individual responsibility, I live it. I have some savings, I have a side business and I have lived a respectful enough life that I have a few people close to me who could help if I really needed it as I would help them if they really needed it.

My grandfather worked very hard all his life and had the cool distinction of only ever working for himself. When he retired, which wasn't til much later because he loved working, he was able to comfortably get himself through his last few years living with Parkinsons.
He never depended on government and I hope to do the same.
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First, I was half-kidding. Your willful ignorance of what it is like to have a long-term illness and the costs associated with treating a long-term illness are quite maddening though, as is your willful ignorance of the health insurance market.

Second, I know you like to think that you know a lot about me but you don't. Here's a hint: everyone that posts anonymously on the internet is not truthful in their profile.

Third, individual responsibility has absolutely nothing to do with it. Zero. Zilch. Illness doesn't strike the irresponsible alone and neither do lay-offs.

Fourth, that's great for your grandfather but what's your point? My grandfather was diabetic and relied on the VA system for his healthcare. Who gives a shit?
 
LadyT said:
And when they do have insurance the insurance companies, unfairly deny claims. I fully support HEAVY regulation on denials and premium calculations.
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I think you'd have a problem with enforcement and oversight, even if you got a law written into the books. Having a law codified, does not translate into it being enforced.

I just think it would be much simpler to remove the profit-motive, for third parties to pay doctors and hospitals. They're unneccessary and redundant to providing actual heatlh care
 
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