Illegals and the economy

[domer76]

This morning, I did a little digging on the impact of undocumented immigrants and the economy. The consensus seems to be that they are not a drag on the economy. Quite the opposite. They are a net positive on their contribution to the economy. Or at least a push. Hard to find a solid number, so the estimates vary.

So, what’s the fucking problem? Why do we want to build huge detention centers to pull these people out of the workforce?

Oh, that’s right. To the fascist cultists, undocumenteds are the “them”. The enemy. The source of all our woes.

 

[cawacko]

There are two different discussions here really.

One is the economic impact of illegals. We can get into the weeds but at a high level they are an overall benefit to the economy. That said, they don't come without cost either.

The other of course is political. The position of both parties has changed over time. I'll offer a few examples. In 2007 in an interview with Lou Dobbs, Bernie Sanders said “Open borders? No. That’s a Koch brothers proposal… it would make the working class even poorer." In 2013 Bernie Sanders said companies bringing in foreign un-skilled labor could hurt American workers, because they could drive down wages. In 2015 Bernie told the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce that open borders would substantially lower wages in this country.

There was a window between roughly 2005 and 2013 when Democrats attacked Republicans for supporting illegal labor and hurting workers. I need to grab the specific quotes, but the tone was the opposite of what we hear now.

This one isn't an economic issue but in 1995 Bill Clinton said "We are a nation of laws, and we will not tolerate illegal immigration."

I am not saying he is correct, but I once heard Chuck Todd make an interesting argument. He said Democrats misread Obama’s 2012 victory. Obama won a large share of the Latino vote, and Todd’s view is that Democrats saw that as the future and shifted toward identity politics. He argues the real reason Obama beat Romney was old fashioned class politics. As a private equity guy Romney was painted as the person who cost you or your family a job, and it worked.

Since Democrats have focused more on identity politics, their rhetoric towards illegal immigration has switched. They still win a majority of the Latino vote, but the Republican Party has gained a larger share in recent years.

 

[domer76]

There are two different discussions here really.

One is the economic impact of illegals. We can get into the weeds but at a high level they are an overall benefit to the economy. That said, they don't come without cost either.

The other of course is political. The position of both parties has changed over time. I'll offer a few examples. In 2007 in an interview with Lou Dobbs, Bernie Sanders said “Open borders? No. That’s a Koch brothers proposal… it would make the working class even poorer." In 2013 Bernie Sanders said companies bringing in foreign un-skilled labor could hurt American workers, because they could drive down wages. In 2015 Bernie told the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce that open borders would substantially lower wages in this country.

There was a window between roughly 2005 and 2013 when Democrats attacked Republicans for supporting illegal labor and hurting workers. I need to grab the specific quotes, but the tone was the opposite of what we hear now.

This one isn't an economic issue but in 1995 Bill Clinton said "We are a nation of laws, and we will not tolerate illegal immigration."

I am not saying he is correct, but I once heard Chuck Todd make an interesting argument. He said Democrats misread Obama’s 2012 victory. Obama won a large share of the Latino vote, and Todd’s view is that Democrats saw that as the future and shifted toward identity politics. He argues the real reason Obama beat Romney was old fashioned class politics. As a private equity guy Romney was painted as the person who cost you or your family a job, and it worked.

Since Democrats have focused more on identity politics, their rhetoric towards illegal immigration has switched. They still win a majority of the Latino vote, but the Republican Party has gained a larger share in recent years.

I can’t disagree with your assessment. I disagree with anyone who claims they are taking away jobs or lower wages.

Regarding the “nation of laws” argument, I’d argue both ways. Yes, we are. IN THEORY. In practice, it’s not how much justice there is in this country, it’s how much justice can one afford.

First time offense for illegal entry is a misdemeanor and is usually treated as a civil matter. I think I’ll let those people slide if they are contributing and keep their nose clean. This country looks the other way on white collar and corporate crime.

 

[Truth Detector]

This morning, I did a little digging on the impact of undocumented immigrants and the economy. The consensus seems to be that they are not a drag on the economy. Quite the opposite. They are a net positive on their contribution to the economy. Or at least a push. Hard to find a solid number, so the estimates vary.

So, what’s the fucking problem? Why do we want to build huge detention centers to pull these people out of the workforce?

Oh, that’s right. To the fascist cultists, undocumenteds are the “them”. The enemy. The source of all our woes.

That's a stupid pile of dumb lies asshat. LINK us up to the source of your bullshit dipshit.

 

[Truth Detector]

I can’t disagree with your assessment. I disagree with anyone who claims they are taking away jobs or lower wages.

Regarding the “nation of laws” argument, I’d argue both ways. Yes, we are. IN THEORY. In practice, it’s not how much justice there is in this country, it’s how much justice can one afford.

First time offense for illegal entry is a misdemeanor and is usually treated as a civil matter. I think I’ll let those people slide if they are contributing and keep their nose clean. This country looks the other way on white collar and corporate crime.

The Cost of the Border Crisis: $150.7 Billion and Counting​

The Cost of the Border Crisis: $150.7 Billion and Counting | The U.S. House Committee on the Budget - House Budget Committee

The Official U.S. Congressional website of The Republican Budget Committee

budget.house.gov

The issue is a $150.7 billion one, shared between federal and state governments, and that's just one year.

How much do illegal immigrants cost the U.S.?

The U.S. sees $150.7 billion yearly cost from illegal immigration, with policy shifts increasing taxpayer burden.

www.newsweek.com

Border Crisis Costs American Taxpayers $451 Billion Annually, House GOP Report Claims​

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/border-crisis-costs-american-taxpayers-451-billion-annually-house-gop-report-claims/

 

[cawacko]

I can’t disagree with your assessment. I disagree with anyone who claims they are taking away jobs or lower wages.

Regarding the “nation of laws” argument, I’d argue both ways. Yes, we are. IN THEORY. In practice, it’s not how much justice there is in this country, it’s how much justice can one afford.

First time offense for illegal entry is a misdemeanor and is usually treated as a civil matter. I think I’ll let those people slide if they are contributing and keep their nose clean. This country looks the other way on white collar and corporate crime.

I think our immigration laws need to be liberalized. People are always going to want to come here because there is opportunity and because there is demand for the labor. We can crack down at the border, but it has never stopped everyone. It should be easier to get work visas for people who want to be here legally and fill jobs we clearly need filled.

We can also get into the demographic side of this, since our low birth rate means we will need more immigration to drive economic growth. But the immigration debate is cultural as much as it is economic. And on the “nation of laws” point, I agree with what you are saying. We are a nation of laws, but there is also a difference between violent offenders and people who are working and contributing.

 

[domer76]

I think our immigration laws need to be liberalized. People are always going to want to come here because there is opportunity and because there is demand for the labor. We can crack down at the border, but it has never stopped everyone. It should be easier to get work visas for people who want to be here legally and fill jobs we clearly need filled.

We can also get into the demographic side of this, since our low birth rate means we will need more immigration to drive economic growth. But the immigration debate is cultural as much as it is economic. And on the “nation of laws” point, I agree with what you are saying. We are a nation of laws, but there is also a difference between violent offenders and people who are working and contributing.

Reagan got a lot of shit for granting amnesty, but he survived. Might be something to revisit. That ain’t gonna happen with Trump or any Republican predecessor. A Dem can’t do it in their first term or they won’t have a second.

 

[Phantasmal]

Reagan got a lot of shit for granting amnesty, but he survived. Might be something to revisit. That ain’t gonna happen with Trump or any Republican predecessor. A Dem can’t do it in their first term or they won’t have a second.

A Democrat could create legislation to make it easier to work in the USA and also make the path to citizenship easier.

 

[cawacko]

Reagan got a lot of shit for granting amnesty, but he survived. Might be something to revisit. That ain’t gonna happen with Trump or any Republican predecessor. A Dem can’t do it in their first term or they won’t have a second.

To me, amnesty is almost a separate topic. It does not address why people want to come in the first place or what we should do going forward.

There is demand to come here and demand for labor, and the system needs to be better aligned to match those needs imo but that is easier said than done of course.

 

[Yakuda]

This morning, I did a little digging on the impact of undocumented immigrants and the economy. The consensus seems to be that they are not a drag on the economy. Quite the opposite. They are a net positive on their contribution to the economy. Or at least a push. Hard to find a solid number, so the estimates vary.

So, what’s the fucking problem? Why do we want to build huge detention centers to pull these people out of the workforce?

Oh, that’s right. To the fascist cultists, undocumenteds are the “them”. The enemy. The source of all our woes.

What you you have to show now is why do they have to be here illegally? You say they are essential to the economy, fine do they have to be illegal to be essential to the economy?

 

[domer76]

What you you have to show now is why do they have to be here illegally? You say they are essential to the economy, fine do they have to be illegal to be essential to the economy?

They don’t have to be, but the process is so time consuming, they go another route.

Streamlining the process to bring in people, legitimate people, is the way to go. Too much inertia to accomplish that, however.

 

[archives]

To me, amnesty is almost a separate topic. It does not address why people want to come in the first place or what we should do going forward.

There is demand to come here and demand for labor, and the system needs to be better aligned to match those needs imo but that is easier said than done of course.

Entire Immigration Law needs to be reformed

Been tried on bipartisan levels in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2024, all which failed, even humorous how some of the same Representatives and Senators who worked on the attempts later rejected similar efforts

Never believed in the immigration armageddon rhetoric and I don’t see any remedy or actual reform ever happening in the foreseeable future

 

[Truth Detector]

I think our immigration laws need to be liberalized. People are always going to want to come here because there is opportunity and because there is demand for the labor.

What part needs "liberalization"?

We can crack down at the border, but it has never stopped everyone. It should be easier to get work visas for people who want to be here legally and fill jobs we clearly need filled.

Really? Trump did it and it only took a month and we up to 99% halted now. Have you been sleeping?

We can also get into the demographic side of this, since our low birth rate means we will need more immigration to drive economic growth. But the immigration debate is cultural as much as it is economic. And on the “nation of laws” point, I agree with what you are saying. We are a nation of laws, but there is also a difference between violent offenders and people who are working and contributing.

Wrong. There is a difference between LEGAL immigration and ILLEGAL aliens. DUH!

 

[Truth Detector]

Reagan got a lot of shit for granting amnesty, but he survived. Might be something to revisit. That ain’t gonna happen with Trump or any Republican predecessor. A Dem can’t do it in their first term or they won’t have a second.

Reagan gave up on amnesty because the liars in the Democratic Party promised reforms that never happened. Be smarter if that is even remotely possible.

 

[Truth Detector]

A Democrat could create legislation to make it easier to work in the USA and also make the path to citizenship easier.

Really? How is it hard to LEGALLY work in the USA? Be specific.

 

[Truth Detector]

They don’t have to be, but the process is so time consuming, they go another route.

Streamlining the process to bring in people, legitimate people, is the way to go. Too much inertia to accomplish that, however.

That's another leftist lie. It is very quick and easy to get a E1 or E2 work visa.

https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states

 

[Truth Detector]

Entire Immigration Law needs to be reformed

Why? What is wrong with the current legislation?

Been tried on bipartisan levels in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2024, all which failed, even humorous how some of the same Representatives and Senators who worked on the attempts later rejected similar efforts

Lying again. NO surprise.

Never believed in the immigration armageddon rhetoric and I don’t see any remedy or actual reform ever happening in the foreseeable future

Word salad. Typical from brainless leftist hacks who don't know what they are ranting about.

 

[cawacko]

Entire Immigration Law needs to be reformed

Been tried on bipartisan levels in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2024, all which failed, even humorous how some of the same Representatives and Senators who worked on the attempts later rejected similar efforts

Never believed in the immigration armageddon rhetoric and I don’t see any remedy or actual reform ever happening in the foreseeable future

I agree. Between the politics and the different factions within each party, it’s almost impossible to get something everyone can accept. It’s sad, really.

 

[Into the Night]

This morning, I did a little digging on the impact of undocumented immigrants and the economy.

I don't believe you.

The consensus seems to be that they are not a drag on the economy.

No consensus needed. They have no right to remain in the United States. They are immediately subject to deportation.

Quite the opposite. They are a net positive on their contribution to the economy. Or at least a push. Hard to find a solid number, so the estimates vary.

Criminals are not a contribution to the economy. Welfare is not the economy.

So, what’s the fucking problem? Why do we want to build huge detention centers to pull these people out of the workforce?

They are not in the workforce. Many are on welfare. They broke the law. They are immediately subject to deportation.

Oh, that’s right. To the fascist cultists, undocumenteds are the “them”. The enemy. The source of all our woes.

Buzzword fallacies. Go learn what 'fascism' means. An illegal alien is a criminal. They broke the law.

 

[Into the Night]

There are two different discussions here really.

One is the economic impact of illegals. We can get into the weeds but at a high level they are an overall benefit to the economy.

Criminals are not a benefit to the economy. Welfare is not the economy.