Immigration

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Wow, here is the first, all-out, no apologies, liberal dissent on immigration I've seen. This is Eric Alterman, and he is a liberal, usually, very liberal. He is not one of the New Republic liberals. So this is interesting.

(Still) listening to the border radio ...


"Whatever meager credibility I have on the question of immigration derives from two facts: one, I spent a week, a while back, riding around with members of the INS in San Diego chasing illegal immigrants and trying to understand their lives; and two, like most upper-middle-class Americans, I exist in a web of endless exploitation of them, sometimes knowingly, often not, though with the single exception of the two (sisters) I've tried to help with legal issues, I never actually ask about their status. And even if I were to insist that everyone who worked for me had legal papers, I could hardly control the practices of say, the people who deliver my takeout or come over to fix my stuff when it breaks.

My point is that the current system implicates (and corrupts) all of us. I think many liberals are no less woolly-headed and simple-minded about illegal immigration than they were (and still sometimes are) about welfare. Yes, the yahoos exploit the issue. Yes, there's plenty of racism involved in the opposition. And yes, the victims are often the people with the least amount to say in the outcome, but that hardly makes the current system worth defending.

Personally, I support a fence. The current system encourages the horrific abuses that take place against immigrants attempting to sneak in. Naturally, I support allowing generous numbers of immigrants into this country, but I support doing so legally, first and foremost. I also think it encourages contempt for the law, which is a net negative in any society. (I also support the legalization of pot for the same reason.) And certainly any nation has the right to determine to whom it wishes to grant citizenship.

If a fence is the best way to enforce those choices, well, then, why not? For symbolic reasons? I don't care about "symbolic reasons." I care about reality. Present conditions invite the abuse of the poorest, weakest element of the system -- frequently by unscrupulous coyotes and, far less frequently, by nefarious or simply overtaxed law-enforcement types -- in order to further enrich those of us who can afford to pay higher wages and, more significantly, wealthy corporations at the expense of people getting a fair wage for their labor, as well as the ability of American unions to organize labor to resist conservative class warfare (which, if you haven't noticed, folks, is winning across the board).

Why are lefties who complain about enforcement of the law so eager to ally themselves with exactly the same position embraced by the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal? And why do you think lawyers and doctors, for instance, are so good at getting laws written to prevent immigrants from employing their qualifications achieved abroad to compete with them here, while unskilled American workers must see their wages depressed by an overcrowded labor market? Once again, it's the wealthy who benefit from the exploitation in the current system and the poor who pay for it. Julia Preston of the Times has a rundown of who benefits and who doesn't from the current compromise here. I'm going to stay away from the details, except to say, I support the end result, whatever it is, because ultimately, I believe in a society of laws, and because I'd rather see the poor and exploited at the mercy of the law enforcement officers with whom I drank and traveled in San Diego than the people who are doing the exploiting now.

http://mediamatters.org/altercation/
 
I agree with the concept of the fence as well, for the many reasons he mentions. We just have to make sure we are ready to accept any of the potential consequences of doing so.
 
I agree with the concept of the fence as well, for the many reasons he mentions. We just have to make sure we are ready to accept any of the potential consequences of doing so.


SF, do not even try to tell me that you agree with this:


"in order to further enrich those of us who can afford to pay higher wages and, more significantly, wealthy corporations at the expense of people getting a fair wage for their labor, as well as the ability of American unions to organize labor to resist conservative class warfare (which, if you haven't noticed, folks, is winning across the board"
 
Darla,

I agree with part of it. I don't agree with the portion of the unions ability to organize labor.... but in general I do agree. As long as we are willing to accept the consequences... meaning that IF wages increase for jobs previously done by illegal labor for less than what they would have been paid had they been legal... then we may have to accept higher prices or lower profitability for the companies we own. Which would depend largely on whether the company produced goods/services that have price elasticity or not.
 
That said, bottom line is that I agree that a fence should be in place. Otherwise this latest round of amnesty that the dumbass politicians are talking about is simply going to encourage more immigrants to try to come here illegally rather than go through the current cumbersome and expensive process. (IMO)
 
Or super the companies would just move the rest of their operations out of country....
Unless we had corresponding rules to prevent that. Either thru tariffs or taxes.
but than that moves into protectionism which cannot long survive in todays world.
 
"Or super the companies would just move the rest of their operations out of country....
Unless we had corresponding rules to prevent that. Either thru tariffs or taxes."

1) There are many jobs that cannot be shipped out of the country that are currently performed by illegal immigrants.

2) We damn well better not go back to a protectionist society. While we should certainly try to better the working conditions in other countries, we should not turn away from globalization.

3) Education is the key.... NOT taxes and absolutely NOT tariffs. We as a society have to realize that the old days of having one job and never having to learn a new career are all but gone. We must continue to educate ourselves... if we do not, we will end up watching others blow right on by.

4) Are you against raising the standard of living in other countries? Does the left's mantra of helping out those less advantaged not apply once you are looking across a border?

5) If we build the economies of countries like Mexico or third world countries and get them to be more self sufficient, THAT betters the world economy.
 
Or super the companies would just move the rest of their operations out of country....
Unless we had corresponding rules to prevent that. Either thru tariffs or taxes.
but than that moves into protectionism which cannot long survive in todays world.


We don't need multinationals with no national loyalty. Why are you such a NWO propagandist? Cuz of your portfolio?
 
"Or super the companies would just move the rest of their operations out of country....
Unless we had corresponding rules to prevent that. Either thru tariffs or taxes."

1) There are many jobs that cannot be shipped out of the country that are currently performed by illegal immigrants.

2) We damn well better not go back to a protectionist society. While we should certainly try to better the working conditions in other countries, we should not turn away from globalization.

3) Education is the key.... NOT taxes and absolutely NOT tariffs. We as a society have to realize that the old days of having one job and never having to learn a new career are all but gone. We must continue to educate ourselves... if we do not, we will end up watching others blow right on by.

4) Are you against raising the standard of living in other countries? Does the left's mantra of helping out those less advantaged not apply once you are looking across a border?

5) If we build the economies of countries like Mexico or third world countries and get them to be more self sufficient, THAT betters the world economy.


Superfreak, please understand, globalism's goal is not to raise the standard of living anywhere, it's to pull the rest of us down to a status simlar to chinese prison laborers.
 
LOL, I don't have much of a portfolio.
I have about 50K invested at the moment, going to cash in a bit over 1/2 of it and pull out about 85 K real soon, probably tomorrow.
I trade the cheap stuff with great short term growth potential, but not long term potential for great growth.
sometimes I lose, sometimes I make 400%, so far this year it has averaged out around 100% growth per quarter, that makes it about 400% per year.

I don't play the portfolio game, I play my game to make money.
 
LOL, I don't have much of a portfolio.
I have about 50K invested at the moment, going to cash in a bit over 1/2 of it and pull out about 85 K real soon, probably tomorrow.
I trade the cheap stuff with great short term growth potential, but not long term potential for great growth.
sometimes I lose, sometimes I make 400%, so far this year it has averaged out around 100% growth per quarter, that makes it about 400% per year.

I don't play the portfolio game, I play my game to make money.

But why are so pro-globalism? It only serves to increase the differences between haves and have-nots, centralize the power of the elites, and banish actual equality and justice from the planet earth. Why? Why are you so bitter and hateful?
 
Globalism doesn't have a goal. Globalism is an effect of greater tools to access the worlds resources both material and human. Those who tout globalism have one goal....making money. Not enslaving people. That may be a side effect but not an aim.
 
But why are so pro-globalism? It only serves to increase the differences between haves and have-nots, centralize the power of the elites, and banish actual equality and justice from the planet earth. Why? Why are you so bitter and hateful?

Once again for the hard of understanding, I am not pro globalization by any means. I just see that it is inevitable to a large degree and go on with my life instead of whining about it.
 
Globalism doesn't have a goal. Globalism is an effect of greater tools to access the worlds resources both material and human. Those who tout globalism have one goal....making money. Not enslaving people. That may be a side effect but not an aim.

Yes. It does have a goal. It's about concentrating power into fewer and fewer hands. Control is the goal. The world's richest have all the money they could ever need, the only thing left to attain is control over others. that is real power. And they use the control system of money to force allegiance. they trumpet specialization so people will forget crucial skills and knowledge, and thus, be dependant upon their corporate system.
 
Yes. It does have a goal. It's about concentrating power into fewer and fewer hands. Control is the goal. The world's richest have all the money they could ever need, the only thing left to attain is control over others. that is real power. And they use the control system of money to force allegiance. they trumpet specialization so people will forget crucial skills and knowledge, and thus, be dependant upon their corporate system.

Its all about money though. Everything else is a side effect. Its like saying energy companies goals are pollution. No its making money concerns about pollution be damned.
 
Darla, that is a side effect of uncontrolled capitalism, not the goal.
The goal is to make money.


Been checking into houses and acreage on NZ, looks pretty good. Have to go over there and see what area I want to live in though...
 
Darla, that is a side effect of uncontrolled capitalism, not the goal.
The goal is to make money.


Been checking into houses and acreage on NZ, looks pretty good. Have to go over there and see what area I want to live in though...
Why don't you just become an illegal in NZ?
 
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