Iraq of '08 eerily like Vietnam of '68

blackascoal

The Force is With Me
Iraq of '08 eerily like Vietnam of '68
By THOMAS A. BASS and MAURICE ISSERMAN
January 31, 2008

The last time the United States lulled itself into thinking that a military surge was working was January 1968, just before the Tet lunar New Year ushered in the Year of the Monkey. Gen. William Westmoreland, commanding America's half million troops in Vietnam, assured President Johnson that 65 percent of the South Vietnamese population was living in secure areas, with "victory in sight."
America was shocked when it got the news that early on the morning of Jan. 31, 1968, a hole had been blown in the wall of the United States Embassy in Saigon. The compound was occupied by Communist forces, while other targets throughout Saigon and a hundred other cities in South Vietnam were under attack.

The last of the communist offensive was repulsed by Feb. 23. That allowed the U.S. military to claim victory, but the Tet Offensive was a major blow. Only when the cable traffic was released after the war did we learn that U.S. commanders had contemplated using nuclear weapons to counter the attacks. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff called it "a near thing," while advising Johnson that this "major, powerful nationwide assault has by no means run its course."

This was indeed the case when the Communists launched another mini-Tet offensive three months later, shelling Saigon with 122 mm Russian rockets and driving American casualties back toward their February level of 500 a week.

In March 1968, after squeaking out a narrow victory in the New Hampshire presidential primary over anti-war challenger Eugene McCarthy, Lyndon Johnson quit the race and partially halted the bombing of North Vietnam. In May, the Paris peace talks began, inaugurating the torturous process that would end, seven years later, with America's disorderly retreat from Vietnam.

Claims that victory is at hand in the Iraq war are as fatuous and unsubstantiated as Westmoreland's belief in 1968 that he was seeing "the light at the end of the tunnel." In spite of the optimistic talk coming from Baghdad that "civilian deaths have decreased by 62 percent," the metrics measuring progress in Iraq are no more believable than they were 40 years ago in Vietnam. In fact, America's military adventure in Iraq is even less sustainable than it was in Vietnam.

In 1968, the United States had a military draft and a surplus of 18-year-olds, and it had yet to commit any of its Reserve or National Guard units to the war. Today, the United States has 160,000 troops in Iraq, many of them reservist and national guard forces (not counting Blackwater and other hired guns). Regardless of the situation on the ground, these troops will soon be coming to the end of their 15-month tours of duty. There is no draft and no possibility of instituting one, and there are not enough fresh units to replace those in the field. The military is finding it hard to keep up enlistments, even with lowered standards, and junior officers are refusing to re-up.

U.S. military commanders are aware that maintaining, never mind increasing, U.S. forces in Iraq is a logistical impossibility. And so are the Iraqis. Iraqi forces opposed to the U.S. occupation have not been eliminated, but are merely lying low. The media focus on al-Qaida is misleading, since it is a minor component in this war compared to the various Sunni and Shiite militias, who for their own reasons have temporarily suspended attacks on U.S. forces and each other's civilians.

Borrowing a page from the playbook of Lawrence of Arabia, the United States has put the Shiite militias and Sunni tribes on the U.S. payroll. Infusions of cold cash, in a conflict already costing more than $2 billion a week, have created a welfare warfare state, with many of Iraq's insurgent forces being fed, trained and equipped by the United States. But incorporating one-time insurgents into U.S.-backed paramilitary groups guarantees neither their future loyalty nor the future stability of Iraq. Leaders of the Shiite and Sunni militias know full well that the number of U.S. boots on the ground will be going down later this year, which is when the real battle for control of neighborhoods, cities, regions, and oil will begin in earnest.

On Jan. 5, the U.S. military command in Baghdad revealed that an Iraqi soldier had opened fire on the Americans in his joint patrol, on the day after Christmas, killing two soldiers and wounding three others. We can expect more incidents like this as American forces begin to dwindle next summer. In the meantime, the calm prevailing over Tet in Iraq has the same eerie unreality that it had 40 years ago in Vietnam.

Welcome to the Year of the Rat.

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStorie...ategory=OPINION&newsdate=1/31/2008&TextPage=1

Our "Saigon moment" will be soon at hand.
 
Read: I don't care about 3000 dead Americans.
Read... 52,000 less is way better. It is always better to lose less lives. You can even suggest that zero would be better than 3K, but 52000 less is significant.

Or I can read "52,000 don't matter because it happened before I was born" into yours. Take a pick.
 
Historical context my friends. And the premise of this thread is highly flawed.
 
What are you talking about? Many don't share his opinions, but if that is what you measure a friend by then you don't understand what a friend is.

Yup. You caught me. I only have friends that agree to my political opinions because I'm unable to see any value in an individual outside of their politics.

WRL is a scummy person and no friend of mine. I've known him long enough to know that the only good kicks we'd have together would be physical ones.
 
Ib1, You wouldn't like that too much...

Thanks for standing in for me Damo...
 
Historical context my friends. And the premise of this thread is highly flawed.

The premise of the thread is right on point .. but it's hardly any surprise that you don't get it.

Historical context?

Both wars were based on fraud, deception, and lies by the American administration .. and both were highly unpopular with the American people.

Both wars pit the mighty American superpower small nations .. and both wars end with the superpower booted out of that small nation with its tail between its legs.

There are many parallels to both disasters .. but I'm betting they'd fly right over your head.
 
Well we see the democrats actively promoting our defeat in Iraq, it seems you haven't gotten the news in the past year, oh yeah, because it's all positive. Causalities down, oil revenue passed, the undoing of the debathification passed, but hey we can pretend it's last year if ya want. I got a poster for ya...

HowaboutitLiberals.jpg
 
WRL, you should know by now you don't have any friends here.
YOu know what I don't agree with a single word that comes out of WRL's mouth most of the time. I probably disagree with him when he talks in his sleep, but I do not dislike him. He is an uber passionate right wing lunatic but I harbor no ill will toward him. Now if you wanna talk about Dixie...
 
Well we see the democrats actively promoting our defeat in Iraq, it seems you haven't gotten the news in the past year, oh yeah, because it's all positive. Causalities down, oil revenue passed, the undoing of the debathification passed, but hey we can pretend it's last year if ya want. I got a poster for ya...

You can roll that poster up and stick it up your ass because I'm not on the side of the lunatics. I'm on the side of America, its people, our troops, and our future.

No Oil Law has been passed .. and what the US wants in the Oil Law won't be passed because it amounts to nothing more than piracy .. which uis why we invaded Iraq in the first place. The Iraqis know this and this is why no law has been passed in all this time.

"Casualities down" ???

That's your "good news" ???

Good men and women are still being killed and blown to bits in a useless, needless war that amounts to the worst military, stategic, and political blunder in American history .. and you see this as good news.

The Iraqi government is still weak and ineffectual and has no control throughout Iraq and the factions against us are waiting for our inevitable Saigion moment because they know better than you that the US cannot maintain its presence in Iraq much longer as we have completely the fuck run out of troops .. with enlistments down and no possibility of a draft.

The bullshit about "Al Queda" is only meant for the knuckleheads. The Iraqis themselves have Al Queda, what little there is of it in Iraq on the run .. and we are paying the factions enormous amounts of money to lay low .. but you didn't know that, did you?

No matter howe low people like you keep lower the bar of "success" .. it's still going to smell like a tremendous and disasterous defeat.
 
You can roll that poster up and stick it up your ass because I'm not on the side of the lunatics. I'm on the side of America, its people, our troops, and our future.

No Oil Law has been passed .. and what the US wants in the Oil Law won't be passed because it amounts to nothing more than piracy .. which uis why we invaded Iraq in the first place. The Iraqis know this and this is why no law has been passed in all this time.

"Casualities down" ???

That's your "good news" ???

Good men and women are still being killed and blown to bits in a useless, needless war that amounts to the worst military, stategic, and political blunder in American history .. and you see this as good news.

The Iraqi government is still weak and ineffectual and has no control throughout Iraq and the factions against us are waiting for our inevitable Saigion moment because they know better than you that the US cannot maintain its presence in Iraq much longer as we have completely the fuck run out of troops .. with enlistments down and no possibility of a draft.

The bullshit about "Al Queda" is only meant for the knuckleheads. The Iraqis themselves have Al Queda, what little there is of it in Iraq on the run .. and we are paying the factions enormous amounts of money to lay low .. but you didn't know that, did you?

No matter howe low people like you keep lower the bar of "success" .. it's still going to smell like a tremendous and disasterous defeat.
Bar of success? There is no bar. It is a speed bump and if you can get over it you have success. No where else in the world would buying off those that kill you be seen as a success. "Please just quit shooting at me and we will pay you" "Shoot at them and we will pay you more". Fuck sake the mafia loves doing business like that. Eventually we will quit paying them. Eventually the Iraqi Army of new will be as weak as the Iraqi army of old and not even have a republican guard, unless of course McCain is elected.
 
Bar of success? There is no bar. It is a speed bump and if you can get over it you have success. No where else in the world would buying off those that kill you be seen as a success. "Please just quit shooting at me and we will pay you" "Shoot at them and we will pay you more". Fuck sake the mafia loves doing business like that. Eventually we will quit paying them. Eventually the Iraqi Army of new will be as weak as the Iraqi army of old and not even have a republican guard, unless of course McCain is elected.

Well said.
 
The only realistic difference in Iraq and Vietnam is the tremendously fewer casualties we've suffered because of advances in protective technology and the primitive capabilities of our opponents.

It has had the same catastrophic effect to our credibility with the world, and has kept our soldiers stuck there in exactly the same way. In both wars, bullheaded leaders refused to admit defeat and let many more Americans die than necessary so they could win the pro-war voters they needed for reelection.
 
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