Iraq

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I think that this is really, really bad. I think that Petraus never believed the so-called "surge" would work unless he had at least 50 thousand (but I think even higher) troops. I think that they all know it won't work, and that they are going to throw life after life into early and eternal graves in an effort to stave off the inevitable. I don't know why. I believe bush would like to pass it on to the next President so that he can then let the millions he collects for his "library" pay for whortorians who will write papers and even books claiming that we would have won the war if only we had listened to bush. But I don't think they can hold this off for two more years. So I don't know what the end game is.

In the meantime, I have become sickened lately by listening to Democrats claim that if the Iraqis don't want to fix their own country, well, screw them. That it's "up to the Iraqis." This is really beautiful. This is like someone breaking into your home, cutting off your legs, in order to "help you" and then when you can't get a job because you have no legs, claim that if you can't fix your own life, it's not their problem.

I wish that one person would have the guts to come out and say, that we f'd the Iraqis, and that there is no way to unfuck them. So we are going to have to pull back and try and contain the civil war, that a lot of them are going to die in (have already died in), because the best we can hope for now is that this does not spread through the region and eventually destabilize the entire world. Truly, they all make me sick.

· Violence expected to rise after UK withdrawal
· Troop numbers too low
· Coalition is 'disintegrating'

An elite team of officers advising US commander General David Petraeus in Baghdad has concluded the US has six months to win the war in Iraq - or face a Vietnam-style collapse in political and public support that could force the military into a hasty retreat.
The officers - combat veterans who are leading experts in counter-insurgency - are charged with implementing the "new way forward" strategy announced by president George Bush on January 10. The plan includes a controversial "surge" of 21,500 additional American troops to establish security in the Iraqi capital and Anbar province.

But the team, known as the "Baghdad brains trust" and ensconced in the heavily fortified Green Zone around the US embassy, is struggling to overcome a range of entrenched problems in what has become a race against time, said a former senior administration official familiar with their deliberations. "They know they are operating under a clock. They know they are going to hear a lot more talk in Washington about 'Plan B' by the autumn - meaning withdrawal. They know the next six-month period is their opportunity. And they say it's getting harder every day," the former official said.

By improving security, the plan's short-term aim is to create time and space for the Iraqi government to bring rival Shia, Sunni and Kurd factions together in a process of national reconciliation, us officials say. If that works within the stipulated timeframe, longer-term schemes for rebuilding Iraq under the so-called "go long" strategy will be set in motion. But the next six months are make-or-break for both the US military and the Iraqi government.

The main obstacles confronting Gen Petraeus's team are:
· Insufficent numbers of troops on the ground
· A "disintegrating" international coalition
· An anticipated upsurge in violence in the south as the British leave
· Morale problems as casualties rise
· A failure of political will in Washington and/or Baghdad


"The scene is very tense. They are working round the clock. Endless cups of tea with the Iraqis," the former senior administration official said. "But they're still trying to figure out what's the plan. The president is expecting progress. But they're thinking, what does he mean? The plan is changing every minute, as all plans do."

The team comprises an unusual mix of combat experience and high academic achievement. It includes Colonel Peter Mansoor, Gen Petraeus's executive officer and a former armoured division commander who holds a PhD in the history of infantry; Col H R McMaster, author of a well-known critique of Vietnam and a seasoned counter-insurgency operations chief; Lt-Col David Kilcullen, a seconded Australian army officer and expert on Islamism; and Col Michael Meese, son of the former US attorney-general, Edwin Meese, who was a member of the ill-fated Iraq Study Group.

Their biggest headache was insufficient numbers of troops on the ground despite the increase ordered by Mr Bush, the former official said. "We don't have the numbers for the counter-insurgency job even with the surge. The word 'surge' is a misnomer. Strategically, tactically, it's not a surge," an American officer said.

According to the US military's revised counter-insurgency field manual, FM 3-24, authored by Gen Petraeus, the optimum "troop-to-task" ratio for Baghdad requires 120,000 US and allied troops in the city alone. Current totals, even including often unreliable Iraqi units, fall short of that number. The deficit is even greater in conflict areas outside Baghdad.

"Additional troops are essential if we are to win," said Lt-Col John Nagel, another Petraeus confidant and co-author of the manual, in an address at the US Naval Institute in San Diego last month. One soldier for every 50 civilians in the most intense conflict areas was key to successful counter-insurgency work. Compounding the manpower problems is an apparently insurmountable shortage of civilian volunteers from the Pentagon, state department and treasury. They are needed to staff the additional provincial reconstruction teams and other aid projects promised by Mr Bush.

The recent British decision to reduced troop levels in southern Iraq, coupled with the actual or anticipated departure of other allies, has heightened the Petraeus team's worries that the international coalition is "disintegrating" even as the US strives to regain the initiative in Iraq, the former official said. Increased violence in the south is now expected, caused in part by the "displacement" of Shia militias forced out of Baghdad by the US crackdown. American and Iraqi forces entered the militant Shia stronghold of Sadr City today for the first time since the surge began. No more major operation have yet been attempted there but "we or the Iraqis are going to have to fight them", one American officer said.

According to a British source, plans are in hand for the possible southwards deployment of 6,000 US troops to compensate for Britain's phased withdrawal and any concomitant upsurge in unrest.

Morale is another key concern in the Green Zone headquarters as US forces prepare for a rise in casualties as the security crackdown gathers pace. In a message to the troops after he assumed overall command last month, Gen Petraeus heaped praise on their sacrifices while warning of more "difficult times" in the months to come.

"We serve in Iraq at a critical time... A decisive moment approaches. Shoulder to shoulder with our Iraqi comrades we will conduct a pivotal campaign to improve security for the Iraqi people. The stakes could not be higher," Gen Petraeus said.

"It's amazing how well morale has held up so far," the former official said. "But the guys know what's being said back home. There is no question morale is gradually being sapped by political debates in Washington."

The advisers are also said to be struggling to prevent the "politicisation" of the surge by the Shia-dominiated government of Nuri al-Maliki. The fear is that any security advances may be exploited to further weaken the position of Baghdad's Sunni minority.

Despite progress this week on a new law sharing Iraq's oil wealth, continuing Shia and Kurdish opposition to measures to ease the post-invasion de-Ba'athification policy that excludes Sunnis from many senior posts is proving intractable. The Petraeus team believes the government is failing to work hard enough to meet other national reconciliation "benchmarks" set by Mr Bush.

Yet it is accepted that the US is asking the Iraqi prime minister to do what most politicians in normal circumstances would refuse to contemplate. "What we're doing is asking Maliki to confront his own powerbase," one officer said.

Full Story:http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2023541,00.html
 
But the next six months are make-or-break for both the US military and the Iraqi government.


My jaw dropped when I read this. I've been hearing this line for the last two years. I'm sick of it.

Bascally, someone needs to be honest and say that we're fucked. And I mean everybody: us, and the iraqis.

I don't think there's a "solution" to this. There are just bad options, and less bad options.
 
But the next six months are make-or-break for both the US military and the Iraqi government.


My jaw dropped when I read this. I've been hearing this line for the last two years. I'm sick of it.

Bascally, someone needs to be honest and say that we're fucked. And I mean everybody: us, and the iraqis.

I don't think there's a "solution" to this. There are just bad options, and less bad options.

Yes, exactly!

And the six month thing, even Thomas Friedman had to stop using that worn out old line.
 
But the next six months are make-or-break for both the US military and the Iraqi government.


I don't think there's a "solution" to this. There are just bad options, and less bad options.

Which is why I've been advocating a swift withdrawal as soon as humanly possible for the last year or so. We need to cut our losses and focus on homeland security and securing our foreign interests.
 
We broke it though...not we, but the bush administration....the withdrawl has to include a plan....a plan to SOMEHOW help the iraqis...maybe it is just reconstruction costs....I don't know?


We are in one HELL of a MESS...everyone should just ADMIT IT...we are screwed to the wall and the Iraqis are too.... :(

Diplomacy, between the Sunni and the Shiites has to take place to stop the civil war...And the surrounding counties have to stop the outside insurgence, that's a start...
 
We have shafted the Iraqis, and our continued staying there is making the situation worse.

The British Chief of Staff openly said this six months ago, and if the head of the Army says lets go, we go. That's why we're bugging out.

Much as I hate to leave our American friends on their own, its time you followed the advice of your generals and ours and follow suit. [/B]
 
We broke it though...not we, but the bush administration....the withdrawl has to include a plan....a plan to SOMEHOW help the iraqis...maybe it is just reconstruction costs....I don't know?


We are in one HELL of a MESS...everyone should just ADMIT IT...we are screwed to the wall and the Iraqis are too.... :(

Diplomacy, between the Sunni and the Shiites has to take place to stop the civil war...And the surrounding counties have to stop the outside insurgence, that's a start...

I'm sorry but I haven't seen any concrete or workable plans to "win" Iraq at this point that involve a continued US military presence in Iraq. The rationale for staying is that of guilt and a feeling that we owe the Iraqis. Its a valid emotion to have over Iraq, but it shouldn't guide us into dumping billions upon billions into a region where we have no control over the outcome nor should it guide military operations. There need to be clear and TANGIBLE objectives for our military operations - like getting rid of Saddam. Stopping a centuries old feud and terrorism between the sunnis, shiites and kurds isn't what I'd call tangible. The only groups that can control this are the Iraqi's themselves, not us. If we're aren't helping the situation why oh why should we waste our resources?

{Dixie....please don't comment, I can't take a long winded diatribe on winning the WOT, democracy and freedom....}
 
I don't think we can win....I just think that we can do things better than what Bush has given us, especially in the diplomacy arena, which is what we need to make things better for the Iraqis.

I still think our troops need to be redeployed....but with a solid and reasonable plan in the redeployment...and let it begin now.
 
I don't think we can win....I just think that we can do things better than what Bush has given us, especially in the diplomacy arena, which is what we need to make things better for the Iraqis.

I still think our troops need to be redeployed....but with a solid and reasonable plan in the redeployment...and let it begin now.

Well, all we're currently doing is inflaming an already bad situation with our presence, racking up soldiers deaths and life-time injuries that we will have to pay for. None of it has turned out to be worth it in the long run. By the time Iraq turns around we'll have probably been better off waiting for saddam to die naturally.
 
We have shafted the Iraqis, and our continued staying there is making the situation worse.

The British Chief of Staff openly said this six months ago, and if the head of the Army says lets go, we go. That's why we're bugging out.

Much as I hate to leave our American friends on their own, its time you followed the advice of your generals and ours and follow suit. [/B]



Much as I hate to leave our American friends on their own, its time you followed the advice of your generals and ours and follow suit.


Not until we've secured those oil production sharing contracts for Exxon and Chevron!
 
I think we should pull out in a 3-6 month timeframe and let the UN know we will provide troops for actions they support in Iraq.
Bring the boys home and quit fighting a war on credit.
 
We have shafted the Iraqis, and our continued staying there is making the situation worse.

The British Chief of Staff openly said this six months ago, and if the head of the Army says lets go, we go. That's why we're bugging out.

Much as I hate to leave our American friends on their own, its time you followed the advice of your generals and ours and follow suit. [/b]
I totally understand the desire to stay a fix it. I feel the same way, though I doubt many here will believe that -- I tend to be a mite more didactic here than in real life. The pooch cannot be unscrewed, though, no matter how hard we try.

We are going to owe the Iraqis reparations, cold comfort though that will be for having destroyed their nation. I don't see any way around that either.

There is no Iraq. We blew it up. All that's left is assessing the damage and picking out the shrapnel.
 
I totally understand the desire to stay a fix it. I feel the same way, though I doubt many here will believe that -- I tend to be a mite more didactic here than in real life. The pooch cannot be unscrewed, though, no matter how hard we try.

We are going to owe the Iraqis reparations, cold comfort though that will be for having destroyed their nation. I don't see any way around that either.

There is no Iraq. We blew it up. All that's left is assessing the damage and picking out the shrapnel.

I agree. But tell me Ornot, in a country where even the opposition party has decided to adopt the "we have to leave because if the Iraqis want freedom and peace they'll have to fight for it themselves" AFTER we've completely destoryed their country; where is the political call for these reparations going to come from?

I'd like to tell them, good luck. You're not getting anything except, if they can get away with pinning it on you, the blame.

That's the kind of country we are. Sad isn't it?
 
I think all undeclared wars should be supported by a seperate tax, if people were having to pay as we go for this war it would be over or never started.
If we pay reparations, that should be a seperate tax as well.
Why should our grandchildren pay for our mistakes ?
 
I agree. But tell me Ornot, in a country where even the opposition party has decided to adopt the "we have to leave because if the Iraqis want freedom and peace they'll have to fight for it themselves" AFTER we've completely destoryed their country; where is the political call for these reparations going to come from?

I'd like to tell them, good luck. You're not getting anything except, if they can get away with pinning it on you, the blame.

That's the kind of country we are. Sad isn't it?
Even here, in the ultra-liberal Bay Area, where "Bush '04" stickers are rarer than elves and fairies -- okay, lot's rarer than fairies -- people don't want to admit that we totally fucked Iraq over. You hear it almost daily in conversation and on the radio: "Oh, but we meant well. And we did get rid of their dictator, you know." Stupid, self-seving, snivelling bastards, all.

Yeah, it's not exactly an uplifting moment in our history.
 
... people don't want to admit that we totally fvcked Iraq over. You hear it almost daily in conversation and on the radio: "Oh, but we meant well. And we did get rid of their dictator, you know." Stupid, self-seving,........

Personally, I don't even think we meant well. But that's another conversation.
People need to own up to the fact that this entire operation has been an utter disaster from the beginning and deal with it from there. Pretending there is some light at the end of the tunnel in the foreseable future will get us nothing more than waste - of lives and and money. What's really sad is that Iraqi's were better off under Saddam than they are now. I think that is the ultimate litmus test.
 
Personally, I don't even think we meant well. But that's another conversation.
People need to own up to the fact that this entire operation has been an utter disaster from the beginning and deal with it from there. Pretending there is some light at the end of the tunnel in the foreseable future will get us nothing more than waste - of lives and and money. What's really sad is that Iraqi's were better off under Saddam than they are now. I think that is the ultimate litmus test.
Not only was iraq better off so were we, and safer from terrorism as well.
 
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